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  • So Alphon gets back to room 24 and ejects the 6 cases and puts back in the 3 unfired ones (or holds the gun in a position where he can take out just the 3 fired ones) then puts in 3 more bullets from his pocket to complete the gun reloading. This leaves 3 cartridge cases lying on the chair.

    That would mean he ‘accidentally’ picked up only 1 cartridge case from the chair!

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    • So Alphon gets back to room 24 and ejects the 6 cases and puts back in the 3 unfired ones (or holds the gun in a position where he can take out just the 3 fired ones) then puts in 3 more bullets from his pocket to complete the gun reloading. This leaves 3 cartridge cases lying on the chair.

      That would mean he ‘accidentally’ picked up only 1 cartridge case from the chair!

      Wouldn't that require corroboration that the gunman missed VS with three shots?

      How many cases were found at the scene?

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      • Woffinden (p33) says that a couple saw a sports car parked in a field near the M4.

        Does anyone know if there was access directly to the M4 from Dorney at that time?

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        • Andrew Pollen, the surgeon that examined Valerie Storie stated that she had been shot 6 times. Gregsten had been shot twice, that's eight bullets.

          Valerie said that the gunman reloaded the gun and then missed her with three shots, in other words there had been eight shots before the gun was reloaded.

          Have I got this wrong?

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          • At the committal Pollen said that Storie had suffered 7 wounds. At that same hearing, Simpson said he performed a cursory examination of Storie (on August 26th) and was sure that she had suffered five bullet wounds in all.

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            • Thank you Derrick.

              Whichever of those numbers is correct means that it still doesn't stack up.

              The number of shots fired before the reload would have to be seven, eight or nine.

              Thanks

              John

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              • “I felt one bullet hit me. When the second bullet hit me I felt the use of my legs go and I fell over. He then fired another two or three bullets at me while I was lying on the ground. There was a pause and I heard a clicking sound as if he was reloading the gun, and then he fired another three shots.”
                Lord Russell's 1965 book ‘Deadman's Hill, Was Hanratty guilty?’
                So there were 6 or 7 bullets fired before reloading.

                If 6, this explains the 6 cartridge cases found left at the scene.

                If 7, this means there had been a previous reloading but of only one round, which doesn’t make much sense after two shots. Then there would have been 1 additional case somewhere.

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                • Originally posted by Graham View Post
                  Yes Nick, I agree with you (for what that's worth....!)

                  I think it should be remembered that The Vienna was little more than a doss-house, to which shady businessmen took their lady 'friends', and from what I understand also had something of a reputation as a "meeting place" for gay men. It was NOT, by any description, a respectable hotel as we would understand the meaning of the word in 2014. The beds may have been changed fairly regularly, but I would honestly doubt if The Vienna's level of hygiene and house-keeping went so far as hoovering the floors, dusting, cleaning up, and so forth, on anything like a regular basis. Those cartridge cases could have stayed undiscovered for months had not Mr Crocker made his inspection. Which, incidentally, was to investigate missing cash at The Vienna, and the first thing he did was to sack Nudds and Snell, although it seems he allowed them to stay one more night before they left. Crocker recalled the police contacting The Vienna to check the alibi of a man who claimed he'd stayed there on the night of 22 August, and on the strength of this he called the police to report the discovery of the cases, which were quickly shown to have been fired by the murder weapon.

                  The only previous link that Acott had to The Vienna was Alphon's statement that he had stayed there on the night of 22 August, so instantly Alphon became Acott's No 1 suspect. When his alibi was proved, Acott had somewhat reluctantly to look elsewhere, and that's how the name Ryan came into the picture, following a routine check on who had been at The Vienna on the 22nd, and in particular who if anyone had slept in Room 24. Had those cases stayed hidden over the following weeks or months, then it is highly possible that the name Ryan might never have been linked to the A6 crime.

                  Acott initially thought it likely that the murderer had returned to The Vienna after the crime, where he re-loaded his gun and accidentally let the two cases fall onto the chair.

                  Frankly, I fail to see how the cases could have been deliberately placed at The Vienna to implicate Hanratty....but stranger things have happened.

                  Apologies for another long post....

                  Graham
                  Hi Graham and all,

                  The housekeeper testified that she had changed the bedding on the morning following the murder and that she had moved the chair to do so.

                  I do not think the cartridges were 'planted' to implicate Hanratty but Alphon. Shorty, I will construct and post a timeline to illustrate my line of thinking.

                  What I will say now (and I have said it before) is that a possible scenario is that neither Alphon or Hanratty carried out these horrific crimes but they were the only two 'in the frame' as it were, because of the line of enquiry taken by the investigating officers from the outset.

                  Have a pleasant evening.

                  Julie

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by j.kettle1 View Post
                    Woffinden (p33) says that a couple saw a sports car parked in a field near the M4.

                    Does anyone know if there was access directly to the M4 from Dorney at that time?
                    The nearest access to Dorney and Dorney Reach was, and is, Junction 7 on the M4. Just a short drive. Why do you ask?

                    G
                    We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

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                    • I don't really understand why people get bogged down with regard to the number of bullets known to have been fired, versus the number of spent cases found. As far as I'm concerned, Valerie was hit by 6 bullets according to Mr Andrew Pollen at Bedford Hospital, and 2 at least fired by the gunman missed her. Gregsten was hit by 2 bullets. The police used metal-detection equipment to trace cases and bullets at the scene, and it is not unlikely that they missed some. The other point I think needs making is the possibility that the gunman wanted the pistol to be fully loaded at all times, hence the difficulty in matching the shots to the cases found. Bear in mind that the gun was found on the 36A bus to be fully loaded.

                      Julie, why should the cases discovered at The Vienna have been put there to implicate Alphon? His initial presence in the whole business was purely coincidental (which he certainly made the most of). As far as The Vienna was concerned, his name wasn't even Alphon but Durrant. He just happened to have stayed at The Vienna on the 22 August. He also just happened to have been 'adopted' by Jean Justice, and both of them had -note signs in their eyes!

                      As I asked ages ago, if the A6 wasn't committed by either Alphon or Hanratty, then who did it? Any chance of a name?

                      Graham
                      We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

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                      • Thank you Graham.

                        The nearest access to Dorney and Dorney Reach was, and is, Junction 7 on the M4. Just a short drive. Why do you ask?
                        Just musing really.
                        Could this car have been a getaway car waiting to pick up the gunman after he had frightened or killed MG and VS?
                        It would have been easy to access the M4 and dash back to London.
                        Could the driver have lost his bottle and didn't show, leaving the non-driving gunman stranded and in a right pickle?
                        He couldn't escape on foot, he had nowhere to go and would have soon been picked up. Is this why he spent so long in the field?

                        Thanks

                        John

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                        • I believe Pollen says he is not sure how many of the wounds he refers to are exit wounds. In his 1978 book Simpson talks about a total of 5 hits: “one of the neck and four drilled-in holes in over her left shoulder and down over her arm.”

                          On Google Maps you can use Street View to go to ‘1 Marsh Lane, Dorney, Windsor. SL4 6QR’ then go down a bit to the entrance to Eton College Rowing Centre, which corresponds roughly to what was the entrance to the cornfield.

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                          • Originally posted by NickB View Post
                            I believe Pollen says he is not sure how many of the wounds he refers to are exit wounds. In his 1978 book Simpson talks about a total of 5 hits: one of the neck and four drilled-in holes in over her left shoulder and down over her arm.

                            On Google Maps you can use Street View to go to 1 Marsh Lane, Dorney, Windsor. SL4 6QR then go down a bit to the entrance to Eton College Rowing Centre, which corresponds roughly to what was the entrance to the cornfield.
                            Not this?

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                            • Yes. Entrance to the cornfield in Spring 1962.

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                              • By the entrance gate.

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