A6 Rebooted

[Limehouse]

One thing that intrigues me about the gun is the fact that it was fully loaded when found.

Most subscribers to the Hanratty-did-it school of thought believe he fired the gun in a fit of nerves and fright after MG appeared to lift the duffle bag above his head in a threatening way. What followed, they suggest, was panic and incompetence, particularly in the manner in which the killer drove away following the events.

Why should someone apparently so inexperienced with handling a gun, who it is claimed shot MG by accident having been surprised by the sudden movement, go to the trouble and risk of reloading the gun? At what point was the gun reloaded? The killer's main instinct following the shooting of VS was surely to put as much distance between him and the bodies in the layby as possible so it is unlikely he reloaded before driving away.

And thinking further along these lines, why load the gun in the first place if the only intention was robbery? One round in the gun to fire into the air or ceiling as a warning shot is one thing - but a fully loaded gun??

[Spitfire]

One thing that intrigues me about the gun is the fact that it was fully loaded when found.

Most subscribers to the Hanratty-did-it school of thought believe he fired the gun in a fit of nerves and fright after MG appeared to lift the duffle bag above his head in a threatening way. What followed, they suggest, was panic and incompetence, particularly in the manner in which the killer drove away following the events.

Why should someone apparently so inexperienced with handling a gun, who it is claimed shot MG by accident having been surprised by the sudden movement, go to the trouble and risk of reloading the gun? At what point was the gun reloaded? The killer's main instinct following the shooting of VS was surely to put as much distance between him and the bodies in the layby as possible so it is unlikely he reloaded before driving away.

And thinking further along these lines, why load the gun in the first place if the only intention was robbery? One round in the gun to fire into the air or ceiling as a warning shot is one thing - but a fully loaded gun??

So are you suggesting that the shooting of Gregsten and Storie was the work of a competent professional hitman rather than the bungling incompetent Hanratty?

[Graham]

Hi Julie,

I hope you're keeping well, and nice to hear from you. And nice that the A6 seems to be picking up again on this Forum.

Don't forget that Valerie said she heard the gunman re-load the gun after he'd fired at her. I don't know nuthin' about guns, but I do recall that someone on the old boards said that the Webley .38 was an easy firearm to discharge spent cartridge-cases, and to re-load. So he could have re-loaded any time after he drove away from the lay-by - or even before he drove away, as he plainly assumed that Valerie was dead. If, as I believe is likely, Hanratty had only recently acquired the gun, then he was probably like a kid with a new toy - what's the point of having a gun with which to do hold-ups, if it wasn't loaded?

Re: the 36A bus, I'd suggest that Pamela Patt and and Ernest Brine were being helpful, honest citizens who felt that they should say something that the investigators wanted to hear. Much the same as the good people of Rhyl, in fact.

Graham

[Limehouse]

So are you suggesting that the shooting of Gregsten and Storie was the work of a competent professional hitman rather than the bungling incompetent Hanratty?

No, I am wondering who loaded the gun before dumping it. Welcome to the A6 boards by the way.

[Limehouse]

Hi Julie,

I hope you're keeping well, and nice to hear from you. And nice that the A6 seems to be picking up again on this Forum.

Don't forget that Valerie said she heard the gunman re-load the gun after he'd fired at her. I don't know nuthin' about guns, but I do recall that someone on the old boards said that the Webley .38 was an easy firearm to discharge spent cartridge-cases, and to re-load. So he could have re-loaded any time after he drove away from the lay-by - or even before he drove away, as he plainly assumed that Valerie was dead. If, as I believe is likely, Hanratty had only recently acquired the gun, then he was probably like a kid with a new toy - what's the point of having a gun with which to do hold-ups, if it wasn't loaded?

Re: the 36A bus, I'd suggest that Pamela Patt and and Ernest Brine were being helpful, honest citizens who felt that they should say something that the investigators wanted to hear. Much the same as the good people of Rhyl, in fact.

Graham

Hi Graham,

I am very well thanks. I hope you and yours are too. I agree, it's lovely to see the A6 thread bumping along with such civility.

I'd forgotten VS had said that about the gunman re-loading. It's quite an important point in my view because it suggests the killer was prepared to use the gun again if necessary. It doesn't really suggest someone who fired in panic and who was surprised and shocked by the results.

Have good weekend all. It's going to be a hot one.

Julie

[Sherlock Houses]

I'd forgotten VS had said that about the gunman re-loading. It's quite an important point in my view because it suggests the killer was prepared to use the gun again if necessary. It doesn't really suggest someone who fired in panic and who was surprised and shocked by the results.

Julie

I agree. A poster recently suggested that the gunman must have been in a right old state in the aftermath of mortally wounding Michael Gregsten with 2 bullets to the head.. Yet he displayed calculating nerve and detachment by ordering Valerie to get into the back seat with him, threatening to shoot her if she didn't obey his various commands and then proceeding to humiliate and degrade her by raping her. All this while Gregsten was sitting/lying dead or dying in the driver's seat.

[Spitfire]

No, I am wondering who loaded the gun before dumping it. Welcome to the A6 boards by the way.

I would suggest that the gunman is the most likely person to have reloaded the gun before its discovery on the bus.

The evidence was that two shots were fired at Gregsten, Storie was hit by five shots and three or more were fired at her which missed.

The gun had six chambers and therefore must have been reloaded at the scene during the fusillade directed at Storie. This is corroborated by Storie's evidence that she heard a clicking noise as if the gun were being reloaded.

The gunman was certainly capable of reloading the gun.

[Victor]

It's quite an important point in my view because it suggests the killer was prepared to use the gun again if necessary. It doesn't really suggest someone who fired in panic and who was surprised and shocked by the results.

Hi Julie,

I'm inclined to the opinion that the gunman re-loaded because "What's the point of an unloaded gun?"

Intimidation definitely, but a nervous and inexperienced gunman probably derived little reassurance from an unloaded weapon, so it could be as simple as unloaded gun is a useless burden, loaded gun = comfort, protection and reassurance.

Therefore "someone who fired in panic and who was surprised and shocked by the results" sounds nervous and inexperienced and in need of any reassurance they can get.

KR,
Vic.

[Limehouse]

So, the picture being painted of the killer is of a man who went out that night with a loaded gun and who made use of that loaded gun to kill a man. Having done so, he used the gun to threaten a young girl into submitting to rape and then coldly emptied the contents of the gun into her body. He reloaded the gun and made his get away, evidently prepared to use the gun again if necessary.

This does not sound like a house-breaker who never had the nerve to enter any premises unless he was absolutely certain there was no one at home.

[GUT]

So, the picture being painted of the killer is of a man who went out that night with a loaded gun and who made use of that loaded gun to kill a man. Having done so, he used the gun to threaten a young girl into submitting to rape and then coldly emptied the contents of the gun into her body. He reloaded the gun and made his get away, evidently prepared to use the gun again if necessary.

This does not sound like a house-breaker who never had the nerve to enter any premises unless he was absolutely certain there was no one at home.

Or once he had killed for the first time he figured "they can only hang me once" and then "an unloaded gun is no use if I am spotted".

[Sherlock Houses]

Going back a few posts, re. the likelihood of the Morris Minor circling the [Avondale Crescent] block looking for a parking place. I very much doubt this as the number of cars on the UK roads in 1961 totalled only about 7 million, less than 25% of the number of cars in 2010. I'd guess the number of cars parked in Avondale Crescent that August day in 1961 was very very few. A strange car [especially this particular, 'most wanted by the police' car] parked there that day would, in all probability have attracted a good amount of curiosity and attention from local residents. I think Margaret Thompson was correct in her statement saying that the car arrived there sometime between 5.30pm and 5.45pm.

Below is an interesting Dept of Transport graph showing the remarkable increase between 1950 and 2010 in the number of licensed vehicles on UK roads.

[Victor]

A strange car [especially this particular car] parked there that day would, in all probability have attracted a good amount of curiosity and attention from local residents.

Hi Sherlock,

But we know that there was another very similar car belonging to Doreen Milne that usually parked there all day, so I would have thought that it would be easy to confuse and disregard them.

Kr,
Vic.

[NickB]

Hogan’s car did not circle if he saw it “turn into Avondale Crescent and come to a halt.”

One of the things that puzzles me about Margaret Thompson is that she said on her way back from the shops she was forced to walk into the road because of the car. But the pavement at that point is particularly wide as can be seen in this contemporary photo and in the more recent ones like in posts 603 and 641 on the main thread.

The car didn’t block enough of the pavement to require walking into the road. So perhaps she walked passed the car on the way to the shops without noticing it and then something (e.g. some people chatting) blocked the pavement between the car and the fence on the way back which made her walk into the road and notice it.

If she was sure the car had not been there at 5.30, why didn’t she contact the defence?

----

One thing we will never know is Michael Gregsten’s intentions when he picked up the duffle bag.

Was he just obediently passing it back? Or trying to disarm?

Or could he have just had enough? Valerie said he “had a temper” and talked of “my fear of throwing him into a tantrum”.

[Victor]

Hi Julie,

So, the picture being painted of the killer is of a man who went out that night with a loaded gun

Who knows if it was loaded when he went out? He definitely loaded it some point before tapping on the car window.

and who made use of that loaded gun to kill a man.

Possibly intentionally, possibly accidentally.

Having done so, he used the gun to threaten a young girl into submitting to rape

Definitely yes.

and then coldly emptied the contents of the gun into her body.

...with lots of doubt and deliberation, according to Valerie's testimony.

He reloaded the gun and made his get away, evidently prepared to use the gun again if necessary.

Again, someone re-loaded at some point between leaving Valerie for dead, and abandoning the gun on the bus.

This does not sound like a house-breaker who never had the nerve to enter any premises unless he was absolutely certain there was no one at home.

Who was cocky enough to steal a jacket from the wardrobe of a house he had broken into to replace his torn one, and then brashly wander around wearing it.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

And thinking further along these lines, why load the gun in the first place if the only intention was robbery? One round in the gun to fire into the air or ceiling as a warning shot is one thing - but a fully loaded gun??

Hi Julie,

I think a gun only loaded with one bullet is pretty useless and ineffective, especially if you're inexperienced with using one. The chances of missing can't be all that negligible, and then you'd be vulnerable.

KR,
Vic.