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  • Derrick
    replied
    Originally posted by babybird67 View Post
    No he makes a good candidate on the basis of the EVIDENCE in the case.

    His hanky round the murder weapon. Murder weapon hidden in his favourite spot. Lied about his alibi. Three respectable citizens identified him as either being at the scene of the crime or in the murder car afterwards. Cartridge cases from the murder weapon found in his room. HIS SEMEN ON THE VICTIM'S UNDERWEAR IN A DISTRIBUTION WHICH PROVES SEXUAL INTERCOURSE TOOK PLACE....I.E. NOT SPILLED, NOT CONTAMINATED, BUT THERE AS A SEXUAL MIXTURE UPON HER KNICKERS!
    Really?
    Where is the evidence it was Hanratty's hanky? He touched it at trial. His cells are on it.
    You are relying on France to spot Hanratty in on the Bus. Again no evidence of Hanratty putting there.
    Alibi? Mrs Dinwoodie bollocksed up the prosecution case to the extent that they suggested that Hanratty took an air service to Dorney!
    3 respectible citizens. Are you sure?
    One, Valerie, is practically blind without her glasses and made the visual id so important.
    One, Mr Skillett, was so incensed over anothers bad driving, whereas Blackhall was more than likely calm. Blackhall is certain the driver wasn't Hanratty.
    The other, Mr Trower, picked Hanratty out in less than 5 seconds when he probably didn't see the Moggie driver at all.
    Spent cases from the gun were found 19 days after Hanratty had stayed in the room. Not very convincing as even a doss house gets cleaned.
    The DNA is LCN and wasn't quantified. The FSS just picked out any peaks that matched alleles in the referential profiles available.
    Noone can state exactly how any DNA was deposited by a DNA test alone. Anyone who believes this is an idiot.

    Evidence....yeah right

    Derrick

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  • Derrick
    replied
    Originally posted by Limehouse View Post
    The doubts I have had over the Hanratty case were strong before the DNA results and whatever anyone says about the indisputable nature of the results I cannot dismiss my doubts and put absolute trust in the results - particularly as the first set of results using a different trechnique produced no - or inconclusive results.
    Hi Julie
    It wasn't a different technique per se. The tests in 2004 used STR testing at 6 loci and is called SGM. The 1998 tests subverted the newly developed SGM+ (10 loci) by adding an additional 6 cycles (34 instead of 28) to the amplification step.
    Derrick

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  • Natalie Severn
    replied
    Jen,
    Thanks but i don't agree with the language being used.
    -Can you be a bit specific and say what the language is you disagree with?

    -The jury themselves at the 1961 trial managed to spot the short comings in James Trower"s supposed sighting,after it had been demonstrated to them that his evidence didnt match what he could possibly have seen what he said he had seen.

    -John Skillett"s identification was neutralized by his companion ,Edward Blackhall"s non-identification and statement.Blackhall picked out men who looked "nothing like Hanratty".

    That left Valerie Storie who had first, wrongly identified a man named Michael Clark.He looked nothing like Hanratty either from what we have been allowed to know about him[his characteristics were very different from Hanratty when she picked him out -dark, close cropped hair,heavy build]. Moreover,soon after this parade,Valerie Storie said that the man she picked out looked like the newspaper photographs of Peter Alphon,which appeared in the press soon after he had been released.

    Three upstanding citizens identified Hanratty either at the scene or later in the murder car; they chose him from a line up as that man.
    No,they did not,Jen .You are mistaken here.

    1]Trower"s "evidence" was discredited by the defence lawyers who had made measurements of the distances and it was accepted by the jury as not "adding up"/not being possible to have seen what he alleged he had seen. Moreover Mr Trower"s friend,Paddy Hogan also said he couldnt possibly have seen the driver as Trower arrived far too late.

    2]Skillett"s evidence was neutralized by his companion"s non-identification.

    3]Valerie"s I have discussed above.Her identification was also thrown into question by her positive identification of Michael Clark.

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  • babybird67
    replied
    Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
    Hi Jen,
    Perhaps you would be interested in reading this post from julie q on the Redbridge witness testimony that was withheld at the 1961 trial.
    Thanks but i don't agree with the language being used.

    While i agree that conflicting witness statements should have been disclosed to the jury, i do not accept that such conflicting statements cast 'aspersions' on the 'integrity' of the Redbridge witnesses.

    Neither had any motive to lie. Both picked Hanratty from a line up as the man they had seen in the Morris Minor in the area on that day. The Morris Minor was in the area...it was dumped there. Nobody knows exactly when and what time, but it was certainly found there.

    You will often find conflicting witness statements in cases. Look at Caroline Maxwell who swears she saw Mary Kelly on the morning after it is commonly accepted she was murdered. It doesn't reflect on witness integrity. One evaluates the witness testimony and makes a choice.

    Three upstanding citizens identified Hanratty either at the scene or later in the murder car; they chose him from a line up as that man. None of them were gangsters. None had incentive or motive to lie. You can say that's not enough evidence for you, if you wish, that's your choice, but to say there is no evidence at all linking Hanratty to the crime is just plain incorrect. There is plenty of evidence. Whether you blindly reject or not is always your choice but it doesn't alter the fact that it is there.

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  • Natalie Severn
    replied
    re Sherrard"s 2002 "WICKED BEYOND BELIEF" statement

    Hi Jen,
    Perhaps you would be interested in reading this post from julie q on the Redbridge witness testimony that was withheld at the 1961 trial.
    Originally posted by julie q View Post
    Hi Vic and Norma.
    I have been reading your debate regarding the reliability of identification witnesses ,including that of Skillet and Trower In the court of appeal judgement<paragraph 152> which I asume you both have a copy of, reference was made to the non disclosure of witness statements which may have cast aspersions on the itegrity of of the Skillet , Trower evidence . As they were refered to only briefly in the judgement I would like to give a fuller account of their contents .
    DOREEN MILNE.
    Doreen Milne owned a Morris Minor car the same model and colour as the one used in the murder .Throughout the summer of 1961 she had parked her car at around 8 am every weekday morning in Avondale Crescent at exactly the same location as the murder car was found.She would then travel by train to her work in London. In the week preceding the murder however the owner of the house ,in front of which she was in the habit of parking her car,had asked her if she would refrain from doing so, he had just errected a new fence in front of of his property and for some reason did not want cars parking close to it. She decided that the easiest solution was to park her car on the opposite side of the street .Doreen Milne said in her witness statement that when she left her car in this location on the 23rd August at 8.15 am she was certain that no other car was parked opposite .
    A witness statement disclosed to the defence and used by the prosecution at the trial was that of DORIS ATHOE
    Doris Athoe lived in Avondale Crescent and said that on the morning of the 23rd August she had noticed a Morris Minor car parked in the crescent and that it had remained there all day.There is every reason to believe that the car seen by Doris Athoe was the one belonging to Doreen Milne , Doris Athoe did not recall seeing 2 Morris Minor cars in the crescent as she would have done had the murder car also been there.
    An even more compelling statement not disclosed was that of MARGARET THOMPSON
    Margaret Thompson lived in Avondale Crescent and at around 5.30pm on the 23rd August she had left her home with her 3 year old son, to go to a shop on the corner of the crescent to purchase some ingredients for a meal she was preparing .On her return from the shop at 5.45pm she found the footpath obstructed by a Morris Minor car parked on it,forcing her and her young son to walk onto the roadway, something which had annoyed her.
    When she saw police activity in the crescent later that evening she immediately went out and made a statement in which she claimed the car had definitely not been there at 5.30pm .
    Another witness statement not disclosed was that of WILIAM LEE.
    Willaim Lee was a HGV lorry driver and on the 23rd August at around 6.30am was driving his lorry southwards on the A6 some 100 miles north of Bedford when a Morris Minor car pulled out from a junction causing him to take evasive action to aviod a collision . So incensed was Mr Lee that he followed the car noting its registration number,when he later stopped for a break and learned of the murder which had occured further south on the A6 and the number of the car involved he called the police and gave a statement.The CCRC discovered this statement in 1998 and Mr Lee was traced and iterviewed .He reiterated what he had said in his original statement
    including the fact that the driver of the Morris Minor had been wearing a green woollen hat with a pom pom on it. Later in their investigations the CCRC obtained a file containing photographs which included coloured images of the interior of the car and the boot . When those photographs were enhanced and enlargened , a green woollen hat with a poom pom on it,exactly as described in Mr Lee's statement to the Derbyshire police in 1961, could be seen in the boot of the car.
    If the defence had been given access to those witnesses it is not unreasonable to suppose that a persuasive argument could have ben made to the jury that the murder car was not in the vicinity of Avondale Crescent at 7.am that morning and was therefor not the car seen by Skillet and Trower
    I think it was non disclosure of this type that prompted Michael Sherrard to describe the people responsible for withholding it as wicked beyond belief .
    Even the Appeal court judgement ,<paragraph 157> descibes it as the "high water mark of non disclosure
    Hope this of some help.
    regards julie q

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