JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[Wickerman]

Do you honestly think I give a rat's behind what Lou Smit believed? The man told more tales than Pinnocchio. He was paid by the Ramseys and would have found all kinds of different evidence if he had been working for the police instead.

But you've made similar false accusations against Alex Hunter too, and others. You just seem to think you can drag up these self created lies whenever you feel cornered.

I'm reminded of the words of Mark Beckner, to the effect..."I believe Patsy Ramsey is responsible, and I do not want anyone on my team thinking otherwise"!

Wow! This is the lead investigator talking - no wonder so many professionals criticized the Boulder Police for their mishandling of the case.

He also told Lin wood, "Yes, of course we investigated many other people, but there is only one suspect in this case - Patsy Ramsey."

Good grief!

An intruder wore brown gloves, presumably beaver skin?. Honestly! whatever next? A person sexually molesting a child wouldn't wear gloves.

The brown fibers are not brown hair - fibers is not hair Louisa
The beaver hairs were thought to come from Patsy's boots, not a coat.

The material under JB's fingernails was proved non relevant when it was admitted by the pathologist that the same clippers were used for ALL corpses in that department and we not always cleaned between times.

They had to retest all the previous cadavers in order to eliminate that hypothesis - it was done, the hypothesis was found to be false.

JB was not the cleanest of children and hated being scrubbed clean so she was bound to have all kinds of stuff under her nails. It is totally inconclusive to say that simply because she had DNA of an unknown source under her nails it MUST have come from an intruder.

The parents took her to a party with dirty hands????
Is that what you have done. Our girls were scrubbed till they shone if we went to a friends party.

You're bending the facts to fit your theory. Ignoring anything that doesn't fit.

Oh good grief, who is it who insults and critisizes the other professional investigators who don't agree with YOUR theory??? Ha!
I see you have a sense of humor.

Writers are going to theorize in order to titillate their readers. Kolar is theorizing.

They are all theorizing, no-one knows what actually happened.

AND HERE IS THE FACT

The official line, from both parties in this case, was that there was NO evidence of an intruder. Even the Prosecution, with the best lawyers in the land, could not prove otherwise and no matter how you try and juggle the facts the bottom line remains the same.

Official?
It may not have dawned on you but it is the latest books and consulted specialists, from 2009 to the present who are supporting the intruder theory.

[Wickerman]

No. You explain it to me.

It's the first I've heard about melted adhesive. Are you going to provide a source? (I'm turning the tables on you now).

Quote:
Deputy Steve Ainsworth of the Boulder County Sheriff's Department discovered a micro-sized white substance located over the stungun mark on JonBenet's right cheek. The white adhesive is visible in this photograph. This is important information because it means JonBenet was stungunned over the duct tape on her mouth, which caused the adhesive on the duct tape to melt and adhere to her face. JonBenet was alive when this occurred.....
The duct tape was placed over JonBenet's mouth to keep her from screaming.
Injustice, Robert Whitson, PhD, 2012, pp.158/9.


The difference is,....I can provide my sources.

[Wickerman]

It'll be there amongst all the other debris under JB's nails, but being carefully ignored.

So now the pathologists & the Coroner are being dishonest...is there no limit to your unfounded accusations???

You are beginning to sound desperate Louisa.

[louisa]

But you've made similar false accusations against Alex Hunter too, and others. You just seem to think you can drag up these self created lies whenever you feel cornered.

There you go again, calling me a liar. I have never made false accusations against anyone. He has said, on record, that he was never going to prosecute the Ramseys. If they had made a confession he probably STILL would not have prosecuted them.

I'm reminded of the words of Mark Beckner, to the effect..."I believe Patsy Ramsey is responsible, and I do not want anyone on my team thinking otherwise"!

Wow! This is the lead investigator talking - no wonder so many professionals criticized the Boulder Police for their mishandling of the case.

He also told Lin wood, "Yes, of course we investigated many other people, but there is only one suspect in this case - Patsy Ramsey."

Well I cannot see what is wrong with a Police Chief stating how he stands on an investigation. He was being honest, unlike Alex Hunter who completely up the backsides of the Ramseys. Why would Beckner say anything other than what he believed?

And I for one agree with him.

Alex Hunter has given HIS own personal opinions often enough that the Ramseys are squeaky clean (and he had his own reasons for this)

Mark Beckner came to his conclusion after conducting a thorough investigation, as far as he was permitted considering the obstacles that were put in his way.

“We have spent an incredible amount of time following up on leads in this case and a significant amount on the leads put forth by Lou Smit,” Beckner said.

"We had interviewed 590 people,
consulted 64 outside experts,
investigated and cleared more than 100 possible suspects,
collected 1,058 pieces of evidence,
tested over 500 items at federal, state, and private laboratories,
gathered handwriting and nontestimonial evidence from 215 people,
built a case file that now bulged to 30,000 pages,
reviewed more than 3,400 letters and 700 telephone tips, and contacted seventeen states and two foreign countries.
AND IT ALL KEPT LEADING US IN ONE DIRECTION.
The detective team believed that John and Patsy Ramsey had knowledge of, and were involved in, the death of their daughter, JonBenet."

The material under JB's fingernails was proved non relevant when it was admitted by the pathologist that the same clippers were used for ALL corpses in that department and we not always cleaned between times.

They had to retest all the previous cadavers in order to eliminate that hypothesis - it was done, the hypothesis was found to be false.

Could you please supply the source of this information.

Louisa's Quote:
JB was not the cleanest of children and hated being scrubbed clean so she was bound to have all kinds of stuff under her nails. It is totally inconclusive to say that simply because she had DNA of an unknown source under her nails it MUST have come from an intruder.

The parents took her to a party with dirty hands????
Is that what you have done. Our girls were scrubbed till they shone if we went to a friends party.

They have my sympathy.

They are all theorizing, no-one knows what actually happened.

That's one of the only sensible things you've said.


Louisa's Quote:
AND HERE IS THE FACT

The official line, from both parties in this case, was that there was NO evidence of an intruder. Even the Prosecution, with the best lawyers in the land, could not prove otherwise and no matter how you try and juggle the facts the bottom line remains the same.

Official?
It may not have dawned on you but it is the latest books and consulted specialists, from 2009 to the present who are supporting the intruder theory.

Half the world could support the 'intruder theory' but it wouldn't alter the facts. The official line is that there was no evidence of an intruder.

[louisa]

Deputy Steve Ainsworth of the Boulder County Sheriff's Department discovered a micro-sized white substance located over the stungun mark on JonBenet's right cheek. The white adhesive is visible in this photograph. This is important information because it means JonBenet was stungunned over the duct tape on her mouth, which caused the adhesive on the duct tape to melt and adhere to her face. JonBenet was alive when this occurred.....
The duct tape was placed over JonBenet's mouth to keep her from screaming.
Injustice, Robert Whitson, PhD, 2012, pp.158/9.


The difference is,....I can provide my sources.

Yes, and just look at them!

By the way regardless of your boast, you don't always prove your sources, and don't say you do unless you want me to find all the times you haven't.

Robert Whitson admitted on television that he was the most incompetent investigator on the JonBenet case.

As for Deputy Steve Ainsworth - was he at the autopsy? I'm assuming he drew his conclusions from looking at a photo.

As far as I am aware only the pathologist (Meyer) and Detective Trujillo were present at the autopsy.

[louisa]

So now the pathologists & the Coroner are being dishonest...is there no limit to your unfounded accusations???

You are beginning to sound desperate Louisa.

Look here Wicksy - get a grip on yourself. How old are you - twelve?

This is a forum where we are trying to discuss a case with some degree of decorum. A child was murdered.

Explain to me where I have accused a coroner or a pathologist of being dishonest?

I'll explain it a bit differently - I am presuming that in a case like this the pathologist has been told to only report on foreign DNA because DNA from family members is almost sure to be present?

(By the same reasoning that there would be no point in reporting on any fingerprints that may be in the home, left by the family)

[Wickerman]

There you go again, calling me a liar. I have never made false accusations against anyone. He has said, on record, that he was never going to prosecute the Ramseys. If they had made a confession he probably STILL would not have prosecuted them.

What you have said Louisa is, that Alex Hunter was paid by the Ramsey's, and now that Lou Smit was paid by the Ramsey's.
You didn't say "might have been", so because you stated it as if it was a fact, I feel obliged to call you out on it.

I think it is not true, and that you have stated an untruth.
I also believe that you tried to make Hunter & Smit look bad by making this "being paid by the Ramsey's" up.

Since it is you who made the claim I think it is only right that you show the paperwork that proves your assertion.

[louisa]

What you have said Louisa is, that Alex Hunter was paid by the Ramsey's, and now that Lou Smit was paid by the Ramsey's.
You didn't say "might have been", so because you stated it as if it was a fact, I feel obliged to call you out on it.

I think it is not true, and that you have stated an untruth.
I also believe that you tried to make Hunter & Smit look bad by making this "being paid by the Ramsey's" up.

Since it is you who made the claim I think it is only right that you show the paperwork that proves your assertion.

Jesus wept. Calm down old man.

I have given numerous reasons already why I think Alex Hunter was never going to prosecute the Ramseys. Look back at my posts if you want to see what I have written.

As for Lou Smit - well he definitely WAS in the employ of the Ramseys. It became official once he retired. He became their personal spokesperson.

I don't need to "try and make people look bad" - they do a good enough job of it themselves.

[Wickerman]

Well I cannot see what is wrong with a Police Chief stating how he stands on an investigation. He was being honest, unlike Alex Hunter who completely up the backsides of the Ramseys. Why would Beckner say anything other than what he believed?

And I for one agree with him.

Well, that's the bit I left out, that apparently you have bought into the same line of reasoning that caused many to condemn the Boulder Police officials.

Mark Beckner came to his conclusion after conducting a thorough investigation, as far as he was permitted considering the obstacles that were put in his way.

His opinion, the Boulder Police position, came early in the case.

Could you please supply the source of this information.

Certainly.
James Kolar takes the reader through this problem and notes that the various examples of male DNA found under her fingernails could be contamination from previous autopsy's.

"The samples were too small to identify their biological origin, i.e. blood or skin cells, and investigators came to theorize that the unknown DNA samples had been transferred from contaminated fingernail clippers used in the post-mortem examinations of other bodies processed through the morgue prior to her homicide.
Investigators were able to obtain the DNA samples from eight (8) of the autopsy examinations that preceded that of JonBenet. These samples were analyzed, but none of these matched the unknown male and female samples collected from JonBenet's fingernails."
Foreign Faction, Kolar, pp.137/8.

The ransom note does keep repeating "we" as opposed to a consistent "I", yet most people still think the intruder theory means a single intruder.

Interestingly Kolar begins his book with a plausible scenario describing how intruders surveyed the house (consistent with the neighbors sightings of a strange van on the street, and a stranger walking around the Ramsey's house), and the eventual kidnapping which went all wrong.

Kolar's work is different because at times he leans toward the intruder theory, then at other times he understands why the Ramsey's were suspected. He doesn't commit one way or the other, but an index would have been helpful in a 500 page book.

[Harry D]

It'll be there amongst all the other debris under JB's nails, but being carefully ignored. It would a strange thing for JB NOT to have some family member's DNA under her nails after spending the entire day with them, her dad carrying her upstairs and her mother undressing her for bed.

Helluva clean-up job from the Ramseys to leave no incriminating evidence on JonBenet but they weren't thorough enough to dispose of the notepad or Patsy's first drafts of the ransom letter. Real smart.

[Wickerman]

By the way regardless of your boast, you don't always prove your sources, and don't say you do unless you want me to find all the times you haven't.

I think I said, "I always have them to hand", sometime's I include the references, and sometimes I don't, but I always have them, unless I say otherwise.

Robert Whitson admitted on television that he was the most incompetent investigator on the JonBenet case.

I can't imagine Mark Beckner admitting that, they all were incompetent, but Whitson explained he didn't realize his errors until after he retired in 2005.
What he learned in his PhD study educated him to see what others had missed in the Ramsey case.

As for Deputy Steve Ainsworth - was he at the autopsy? I'm assuming he drew his conclusions from looking at a photo.

Why does he have to be at the autopsy?
He can't know it was adhesive, or that it was melted, from a photograph.
But, you are trying to avoid the issue.
Evidence for the application of a tazer is more conclusive than the theory of being hit by a piece of train track.

[Wickerman]

Jesus wept. Calm down old man.

I have given numerous reasons already why I think Alex Hunter was never going to prosecute the Ramseys. Look back at my posts if you want to see what I have written.

As for Lou Smit - well he definitely WAS in the employ of the Ramseys. It became official once he retired. He became their personal spokesperson.

I don't need to "try and make people look bad" - they do a good enough job of it themselves.

Lou Smit was clearly hired by D.A. Alex Hunter, but resigned from this role in 1998. By that time he had already developed his "intruder" theory.
He worked on this case privately after 1998.
Lou Smit's discovery & development of the "intruder" theory had nothing to do with the Ramsey's.

[louisa]

He worked on this case privately after 1998.
Lou Smit's discovery & development of the "intruder" theory had nothing to do with the Ramsey's.

In his September 1998 resignation letter, Smit stated that "the Ramseys did not do it" and cited "substantial, credible evidence of an intruder and a lack of evidence that the parents are involved".[3] Smit later worked for the Ramseys in helping establish their innocence and was portrayed by Kris Kristofferson in a CBS television miniseries based on the case, Perfect Murder, Perfect Town

[louisa]

I think I said, "I always have them to hand", sometime's I include the references, and sometimes I don't, but I always have them, unless I say otherwise.

You always have them to hand? Oh that's all right then.

Supposing I gave you that reply when you asked me to name my sources (which I ALWAYS do!)

Whitson explained he didn't realize his errors until after he retired in 2005.
What he learned in his PhD study educated him to see what others had missed in the Ramsey case.

Whitson told the cameras that he learned his errors almost immediately. He knew the crime scene should have been locked down for forensics and he should not have permitted all and sundry to tramp through the house. Some of Patsy's friends were even allowed to wipe down the kitchen surfaces while they waited.

If you are saying he had to gain a PhD before he learned how wrong he was - then I'm speechless!

Why does he have to be at the autopsy?
He can't know it was adhesive, or that it was melted, from a photograph.

Exactly.

But, you are trying to avoid the issue.

How am I trying to avoid the issue? I'm simply trying to make sense of your posts.

Mark Beckner came to his conclusion after conducting a thorough investigation, as far as he was permitted considering the obstacles that were put in his way.

His opinion, the Boulder Police position, came early in the case.

As far as I know he came to that conclusion after all investigations had been completed, as best they could be under the circumstances.

[louisa]

Helluva clean-up job from the Ramseys to leave no incriminating evidence on JonBenet but they weren't thorough enough to dispose of the notepad or Patsy's first drafts of the ransom letter. Real smart.

Harry, DNA from her mum and dad was left all over the place - they lived there after all; they didn't need to clean it up.

That's the problem that forensics had - the Ramseys DNA was the only viable DNA they found.

When JonBenet was brought up from the cellar her mother threw herself on her child, thus contaminating the crime scene (a body is classed as a crime scene) so there was a transference of fibres etc. John's was also present because he had picked her up and carried her.

Then, bizarrely, the whole group of people stood over her praying so all kinds of stuff could have been dropped on her. Then somebody covered the body with an Avalanche sweatshirt.

I believe Patsy didn't think that the police would be smart enough to look through her pad (those first drafts were in the middle somewhere)