JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[louisa]

Are you saying the fur coat was Beaver?

Well Patsy did own a Beaver coat. She had many fur coats (despicable in itself, but that's just my viewpoint).

[louisa]

A few more oddities and discrepancies in the JonBenet case...

Detective Linda Arndt, the only police officer on the scene in the hours prior to the discovery of the body at 1:05 p.m., remembers John Ramsey’s demeanour when he initially greeted her as not distraught nor even upset, but cordial.

Arndt says that she asked the Ramseys and their friends to examine the ransom note for clues, and that almost everyone offered ideas to her except John Ramsey.

Linda Arndt says that she was confused about why the Ramseys would not speak to her. They later refused a formal interview, and refused to take polygraph tests.


The large pants found on the body:

Upon viewing the body, Patsy exclaimed that she had never before seen the underwear on her daughter’s corpse. Detectives later found out that Patsy had recently purchased that pair of underwear at Bloomingdale's in New York for her 12-year-old niece, but that JonBenet begged to have it kept for her, so Patsy kept it for her. Prior to the murder, even friends of the family knew of this underwear story. If Patsy did recognize the distinctive underwear, and was lying, then she was trying to point the police to the other 'evidence', which she knew had been planted.

-------------------------------------

After the Grand Jury voted to indict John and Patsy Ramsey for multiple felonies resulting in the death of their daughter JonBenet, the D.A. led Colorado's complacent mainstream media to assume that the Grand Jury had not reached such a verdict, and their vote to indict remained a secret for more than a decade.

The Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter probably believed the couple to be guilty but wanted them let off all charges. Why? Because he knew a trial of this magnitude would have bankrupted their offices.

Hardly any criminal case ever went to trial in Boulder - they were plea-bargained, in order to save money.

It has been said that Alex Hunter and John Ramsey were both members of the same Freemasons Lodge which may also have had some bearing on Hunter's decision. I have nothing to support this but I have heard it said on a number of occasions. Heresay yes, but still quite interesting.

After the Grand Jury voted to indict John and Patsy Ramsey for multiple felonies resulting in the death of their daughter JonBenet, the D.A. led Colorado's complacent mainstream media to assume that the grand jury had not reached such a verdict, and their vote to indict remained a secret for more than a decade.

This is a snippet of what Linda Hoffmann-Pugh stated in front of the Grand Jury:

Former Ramsey housekeeper Linda Hoffmann-Pugh stated that the blanket wrapped around JonBenet's body had been left in the dryer. There was still a Barbie Doll nightgown clinging to the blanket, so it had to have come out of the dryer recently, she said. Only Patsy would have known it was in the dryer, she said.

Plus a penknife which was found near JB's body was the one she herself had taken from Burke. She had hidden it under a pile of sheets in the upstairs linen cupboard. Only Patsy would know it was there, when she went to remove linens from the cupboard.


A few discrepancies in a suspect's statement can be overlooked but when put together, ALL the discrepancies, and strange behaviours that night and subsequently, point to only one conclusion and that it was an 'inside job' and that Patsy was involved.

I'll come to the handwriting later.......

[Harry D]

One way to reconcile the intruder/insider debate would be if JonBenet had been the victim of a sex-game involving the Ramseys & another party. It got out of hand and the other person murdered JonBenet, but the Ramseys couldn't expose them otherwise he'd blow the lid on the whole thing and take them down with him.

[Abby Normal]

There are a number of items yes, I think we passed over this some days ago when I mentioned that the ransom note repeatedly mentioned "we", and that two men are watching over JonBenet. The implication throughout the note is that two people are involved.

Not sure if you are aware of this but the bag & rope you refer to was found in John Andrew's room, it was a guest room for the eldest son when he came over to stay.
The duvet found in the suitcase (in the basement) also had semen stains belonging to John Andrew.

I'm having trouble envisioning the two person intruder theory. it dosnt jibe with the killer getting into the house while the ramseys are out, scoping the inside of the place, writing the note and hiding until there return.

I just cant see two people doing that in the house at the same time. And if the other one stays outside and/or in getaway car-what theyre going to wait several hours? and not arose suspicion? It was also freezing out that night.

if it was an intruder I see it going like this.

its someone who knows them and there house, perhaps one of the many workers that had recently worked on the house and/or someone the nanny knew. It also had to be someone close to know the bonus amount-the nanny might have known the amount.

He comes to there house when they are out. Probably knows they are out.
sneaks in, wanders around scopes it out, eats some pineapple, maybe stores the bag and rope under the bead in guest bedroom to use later. somewhere here he gets the idea to write the ransome, eventhough his primary goal is abduction and sexual assault/torture all along. somewhere around here he finds the suitcase and the other items, maybe thinking he can put her in the suitcase?

Takes the completed ransome letter with him back downstairs and while waiting for them to return sees the box of paintbrushes and fashions a garrote.

when they return and go to bed he goes back upstairs, leaves the note, and forgets the flashlight on the table. he goes up, gets some rope out of the bag, and pushes the bag with remaining rope back under the bead. Goes in her room and realizes she is asleep and he can just pick her up and carry her downstairs without her waking up and does so taking her to the basement. realizes he cant get her out, maybe she wakes up and starts to scream (there was reports a neighbor/s heard a screem). He bashes her over the head (perhaps with the bat ), to knock her out, then puts the duct tape over her mouth, ties her hands, takes her into the storage room strangles her, sexually assaults her with the part of the paintbrush handle that wasn't found, while torturing her with the garrot.

He finally finishes her off with the garrot, leaves taking the paintbrush handel and duct tape cord etc and uses the now useless suitcase to climb out the window, maybe bringing the bat outside but eventuially just leaving outside the house where it was found.

I don't think the found flashlight was the murder weapon because she was killed in the basement and he would not go back upstairs to leave the flashlight once she was killed. Like I said I think he left it on his way up to her room when everyones in bed.

Hes also wearing gloves, hence no fingerprints anywhere.

[louisa]

Sorry Abby but there are far too many loopholes in that theory. I don't know where to start.

The ransom note was written by Patsy, no doubt about it. It couldn't be more obvious if she had written her name across it. I will state my reasons later.

For now here are a few reasons why the 'kidnapper' theory does not hold up.......

A kidnapper doesn't write the ransom note in the house
A kidnapper doesn't molest the victim in the house
A kidnapper doesn't kill the victim in the house
A kidnapper doesn't leave the victim behind in the house, and
A kidnapper doesn't forget to call to arrange to get the ransom money

The strip of duct tape found on JonBenet's mouth had a bloody mucous on it and a "perfect set of child's lip prints, which did not indicate a tongue impression or resistance." This suggests it was not used to silence her but instead placed on her after she was unconscious, an indication of staging. Why would an intruder stage the crime scene?

I do not believe it was any kind of 'sex game' that killed JB, just a tragic accident. Patsy was at the end of her tether, it had been a long day, and could have pushed JB and her head connected with the edge of the basin in the bathroom in her bedroom. Patsy may have thought JB was dead.

The Ramseys then had to save themselves. They did not wish to give up their millionaire lifestyles.

They thought they could get away with it and with the help of Alex Hunter, they did.

[louisa]

Abby - You mentioned the pineapple - No intruder bent on kidnapping is going to sit down and eat pineapple.

There were only two sets of fingerprints on the bowl - Burkes and JonBenets, which makes one think that the kids got up and Burke got the pineapple out of the fridge so they could both have some.

Which leads me to my other theory - that Burke clobbered JB with the flashlight, either accidentally or on purpose, and the parents covered it up.

[Abby Normal]

Abby - You mentioned the pineapple - No intruder bent on kidnapping is going to sit down and eat pineapple.

There were only two sets of fingerprints on the bowl - Burkes and JonBenets, which makes one think that the kids got up and Burke got the pineapple out of the fridge so they could both have some.

Which leads me to my other theory - that Burke clobbered JB with the flashlight, either accidentally or on purpose, and the parents covered it up.

burkes and patsys fingerprints were found on it, not JonBenets.

it is bizarre thing. I would disregard the pineapple as a red herring accept that it was found in her stomach.

If its an intruder is he really going to feed her pineapple? if its one of the parents-why would they deny anything about it? or why would they feed it to her if they had anything to do with her death.

It just makes no sense.

However, it does if burke killed her as you say. he gets her up, or she gets up and they share some of it-he gets mad at some point and hits her.

but IMHO burke is least likely-because if he had anything to do with it-the parents would not let him talk to anybody!!

[louisa]

but IMHO burke is least likely-because if he had anything to do with it-the parents would not let him talk to anybody!!

His parents tried to prevent him talking to anybody but in the end he had to be interviewed. When he (at last) was interviewed he had been coached beforehand not to say anything. He told the interviewer that he didn't really want to talk in case he got into trouble. I think the interview is somewhere on YouTube.

He's not the least likely. I would say an intruder is the least likely because, quite frankly, it's ludicrous. John's involvement consisted of the cover-up.

[Wickerman]

What is that supposed to mean? Explain my 'emotional hangups'

Almost all of the points you raised were the result of your feelings, your emotions, not based on anything factual.
When a witness presents factual evidence, it cannot be countered by emotion, it must be countered by facts.

[Wickerman]

The floor plans are always helpful. Funniy enough I was looking at those on the internet only yesterday. I'd seen them before but I was refreshing my memory.

The Americans refer to the ground floor as the first floor and the first floor as the second floor.

Which is why I put both under the pic. not everyone around the world knows this.

Anyhow, now you realise that you made an incorrect statement when you said JB's body was found in the room where the (supposed) intruder entered the building?

I never said any such thing.

The reason I decided to post a floor plan, actually it was the Second Floor, was to show Abby where John Andrews room was and, that JonBenet's room was somewhat isolated at one end of the house, with Burke's room at the other end, and the parents upstairs.
We had discussed any noise coming from JonBenet's room might wake everybody else - when we see the floor plan then it becomes aparent that this may not be the case.
Then I decided to post all the floors for anyone who may not have seen them.

Why would you think I said there was a window in the room where the body was found?

[Wickerman]

Well Patsy did own a Beaver coat. She had many fur coats (despicable in itself, but that's just my viewpoint).

Ok thanks.
The way you worded the previous reply read like you were suggesting the animal hairs were Beaver and came off her Beaver fur coat - as if this was an established fact. Hence, I would expect you to provide a source to that effect.

Now you seem to be saying, "it could have been" , which is not the same thing.
This case is replete with "could have's".

You also mentioned black tape on the back of a picture?
If this tape was tested the police can determine if the duct tape across her mouth came off the same roll as the tape you referred to.
You might think one piece of "black tape" is the same as any other piece of "black tape", well, it isn't.
If the police report states no other black duct tape matching the piece across her mouth was found in the house, then this must be the fact of the matter.
You didn't provide a source for this claim either.

[Pcdunn]

Pineapple was eaten by JBR

Abby - You mentioned the pineapple - No intruder bent on kidnapping is going to sit down and eat pineapple.

There were only two sets of fingerprints on the bowl - Burkes and JonBenets, which makes one think that the kids got up and Burke got the pineapple out of the fridge so they could both have some.

Which leads me to my other theory - that Burke clobbered JB with the flashlight, either accidentally or on purpose, and the parents covered it up.

JonBenet's fingerprints were not on the bowl of pineapple, but her stomach did contain bits of pineapple, and the state of digestion indicated they were eaten late, after the family returned home.

I believe the program focusing on Burke's involvement said that the fingerprints indicated that Patsy may have given Burke the bowl and the glass of tea. They discussed the likelihood that JB came downstairs, snitched some pineapple from the bowl Burke was eating out of, and ate it quickly. He may have swatted at her, or even chased her downstairs, where an accident occurred. (This theory works best if Patsy had returned back upstairs after giving Burke his snack, as an adult would have intervened between the children if one had been present.) And she was packing for their planned trip out of state in John's private airplane the next day.

I certainly don't think an intruder would either eat the pineapple or give it to the child he intended to abduct. No other prints were on the bowl and glass besides Burke's and Patsy's.

[Wickerman]

A few more oddities and discrepancies in the JonBenet case...

Detective Linda Arndt, the only police officer on the scene in the hours prior to the discovery of the body at 1:05 p.m., remembers John Ramsey’s demeanour when he initially greeted her as not distraught nor even upset, but cordial.

Arndt says that she asked the Ramseys and their friends to examine the ransom note for clues, and that almost everyone offered ideas to her except John Ramsey.

Linda Arndt says that she was confused about why the Ramseys would not speak to her. They later refused a formal interview, and refused to take polygraph tests.


The large pants found on the body:

Upon viewing the body, Patsy exclaimed that she had never before seen the underwear on her daughter’s corpse. Detectives later found out that Patsy had recently purchased that pair of underwear at Bloomingdale's in New York for her 12-year-old niece, but that JonBenet begged to have it kept for her, so Patsy kept it for her. Prior to the murder, even friends of the family knew of this underwear story. If Patsy did recognize the distinctive underwear, and was lying, then she was trying to point the police to the other 'evidence', which she knew had been planted.

-------------------------------------

I have to wonder where you get all this (above), is it Steve Thomas again?

After the Grand Jury voted to indict John and Patsy Ramsey for multiple felonies resulting in the death of their daughter JonBenet, the D.A. led Colorado's complacent mainstream media to assume that the Grand Jury had not reached such a verdict, and their vote to indict remained a secret for more than a decade.

But you should know that (above) is not true, Alex Hunter told the media that there was not enough evidence to indict the Ramsey's. There's a Boulder Police official on tape agreeing with this fact. It was a fact.
Grand Jury conclusions are not to be made public, a lifetime gag order, under threat of legal action.

Also, you conveniently omitted another fact, that Alex Hunter discovered that the Boulder Police had not submitted the DNA results to the Grand Jury. Which in essence is an attempt to pervert the course of Justice. The Grand Jury had only been fed the evidence which supported the theory adopted by the Boulder Police.

The Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter probably believed the couple to be guilty but wanted them let off all charges. Why? Because he knew a trial of this magnitude would have bankrupted their offices.

Hardly any criminal case ever went to trial in Boulder - they were plea-bargained, in order to save money.

It has been said that Alex Hunter and John Ramsey were both members of the same Freemasons Lodge which may also have had some bearing on Hunter's decision. I have nothing to support this but I have heard it said on a number of occasions. Heresay yes, but still quite interesting.

This is all rubbish, Louisa.
Are you delving into conspiracy theories now?

After the Grand Jury voted to indict John and Patsy Ramsey for multiple felonies resulting in the death of their daughter JonBenet, the D.A. led Colorado's complacent mainstream media to assume that the grand jury had not reached such a verdict, and their vote to indict remained a secret for more than a decade.

Alex Hunter cannot divulge any conclusion arrived at by the Grand Jury - the legal "gag order" applies to him too.
All Hunter was required to do was decide whether to act on their conclusion, but he can never state what that conclusion was.

This is a snippet of what Linda Hoffmann-Pugh stated in front of the Grand Jury:

Former Ramsey housekeeper Linda Hoffmann-Pugh stated that the blanket wrapped around JonBenet's body had been left in the dryer. There was still a Barbie Doll nightgown clinging to the blanket, so it had to have come out of the dryer recently, she said. Only Patsy would have known it was in the dryer, she said.

Plus a penknife which was found near JB's body was the one she herself had taken from Burke. She had hidden it under a pile of sheets in the upstairs linen cupboard. Only Patsy would know it was there, when she went to remove linens from the cupboard.

When did the housekeeper leave the house prior to the murder?

[louisa]

Linda Hoffmann-Pugh was still in the employ of the Ramseys when JB was killed.

Alex Hunter could not be trusted to make a truthful statement in the whole of the investigation. He told the linguistics experts on the case that he did not want the Ramseys indicted.

You are asking where I got all my information. Well I didn't make it up but took it from various books and from the internet. Presumably the same type of places where you do your investigations.

I had assumed you would have known most of it already but obviously not.

The paragraph about the 'large pants' was contained within a link that you yourself posted.

If I am simply theorizing then I will say so, as I did with the 'Freemasons' paragraph. Otherwise I am quoting from my own books and various websites about the case.


It’s clear nobody broke into the Ramseys’ home on Christmas night to kill JonBenét, and there was never any kidnapping plot. The ransom letter was a hasty cover-up. In my opinion, the unsolved mystery isn’t who killed the little girl, but why Patsy Ramsey killed her daughter.

I think you would agree that if you find the author of the 'ransom note' then you have found the killer.

FBI Linguisitics expert Chet Ubowski, who had made the early discovery that Patsy’s handwriting was consistent with the ransom note on twenty-four of the twenty-six alphabet letters, had recently told one detective, “I believe she wrote it."

"We had noticed earlier that in pre-homicide writings, Patsy consistently used the manuscript “a,” but post-homicide, it disappeared from her samples of writing. This was a major find, for it looked as if she was consciously changing her lettering. She had more handwriting styles than a class of sixth graders and was seemingly able to change as easily as turning on and off different computer fonts. I thought about how big a mistake it had been to provide the defense lawyers with a copy of the note. A suspect could study it prior to giving writing samples and consciously avoid certain characteristics, such as the style of writing the first letter of the alphabet.

The letter ostensibly threatens the father, yet the animosity is all directed toward the child, which seems entirely out-of-place. There are multiple threats to execute or behead the little girl, and a reference to JonBenét’s “remains”. Contrast this to the gentle advice “to be rested” given to John Ramsey.

Finally, Patsy Ramsey is notable for her absence in the ransom letter. The letter deals with the daughter, and is addressed to the father. The mother is never mentioned. Yet the writer’s linguistic patterns match those of Patsy Ramsey, and graphologists agree the letter was written by a woman."


And I believe that woman to be Patsy Ramsey.
.
.
.

[Abby Normal]

A few more oddities and discrepancies in the JonBenet case...

Detective Linda Arndt, the only police officer on the scene in the hours prior to the discovery of the body at 1:05 p.m., remembers John Ramsey’s demeanour when he initially greeted her as not distraught nor even upset, but cordial.

Arndt says that she asked the Ramseys and their friends to examine the ransom note for clues, and that almost everyone offered ideas to her except John Ramsey.

Linda Arndt says that she was confused about why the Ramseys would not speak to her. They later refused a formal interview, and refused to take polygraph tests.


The large pants found on the body:

Upon viewing the body, Patsy exclaimed that she had never before seen the underwear on her daughter’s corpse. Detectives later found out that Patsy had recently purchased that pair of underwear at Bloomingdale's in New York for her 12-year-old niece, but that JonBenet begged to have it kept for her, so Patsy kept it for her. Prior to the murder, even friends of the family knew of this underwear story. If Patsy did recognize the distinctive underwear, and was lying, then she was trying to point the police to the other 'evidence', which she knew had been planted.

-------------------------------------

After the Grand Jury voted to indict John and Patsy Ramsey for multiple felonies resulting in the death of their daughter JonBenet, the D.A. led Colorado's complacent mainstream media to assume that the Grand Jury had not reached such a verdict, and their vote to indict remained a secret for more than a decade.

The Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter probably believed the couple to be guilty but wanted them let off all charges. Why? Because he knew a trial of this magnitude would have bankrupted their offices.

Hardly any criminal case ever went to trial in Boulder - they were plea-bargained, in order to save money.

It has been said that Alex Hunter and John Ramsey were both members of the same Freemasons Lodge which may also have had some bearing on Hunter's decision. I have nothing to support this but I have heard it said on a number of occasions. Heresay yes, but still quite interesting.

After the Grand Jury voted to indict John and Patsy Ramsey for multiple felonies resulting in the death of their daughter JonBenet, the D.A. led Colorado's complacent mainstream media to assume that the grand jury had not reached such a verdict, and their vote to indict remained a secret for more than a decade.

This is a snippet of what Linda Hoffmann-Pugh stated in front of the Grand Jury:

Former Ramsey housekeeper Linda Hoffmann-Pugh stated that the blanket wrapped around JonBenet's body had been left in the dryer. There was still a Barbie Doll nightgown clinging to the blanket, so it had to have come out of the dryer recently, she said. Only Patsy would have known it was in the dryer, she said.

Plus a penknife which was found near JB's body was the one she herself had taken from Burke. She had hidden it under a pile of sheets in the upstairs linen cupboard. Only Patsy would know it was there, when she went to remove linens from the cupboard.


A few discrepancies in a suspect's statement can be overlooked but when put together, ALL the discrepancies, and strange behaviours that night and subsequently, point to only one conclusion and that it was an 'inside job' and that Patsy was involved.

I'll come to the handwriting later.......

Hi Louisa

There were no large unknown pants on Jon benet. She was wearing the same long John bottoms that patsy had put on her when she was being put to bed.