the killing of jon benet-the father speaks

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

yeah hes a weird bird. divorced once already. new young wife. rich executive. no tears or even emotion during interviews. his excuse for lawyering up is his friend told him too. i know the type. cold SOB who distances himself from problems and builds layers around him to save his own arse. one of the first cops on the scene said she put her hand on her gun when she came face to face with him because she beleived she was talking to a murderer. the DA is a coward too...your right power and money.. the DA was scared and didnt want to deal with it.

i checked out that book and will be getting. thanks for the heads up.

no tears or even emotion during interviews. his excuse for lawyering up is his friend told him too. i know the type. cold SOB who distances himself from problems and builds layers around him to save his own arse.

Exactly. Everything about their reaction to the murder of their youngest child was just *off.* I have two pre-teen sons and if that happened to me, I would be out for blood and an emotional berserker! (And I am considered by peers and friends to be very cool under pressure!)While it is always a good idea to lawyer up and never speak to police without your attorney, it is, undoubtedly, a very bad idea to attempt to hop on a plane mere hours after the body was discovered! In fact, did they even remove the body from the house?? I don't remember. Regardless, the parents just acted guilty as sin and then had the nerve to cry that "everyone suspects us." Ya think???

one of the first cops on the scene said she put her hand on her gun when she came face to face with him because she beleived she was talking to a murderer. the DA is a coward too...your right power and money.. the DA was scared and didnt want to deal with it.

Yes!!! I saw that interview, too! She said something about the look on John Ramsey's face scaring the crap out of her. I have been face to face with many murderers in my tenure at the jail, but there were only a few times that I felt the same chill...and it was from inmates who were pure psychopaths with a few bodies to their name. The entire investigation was mangled from the start and the D.A. was indeed a coward. Unfortunately, (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) money makes most thing, like the law, a lot less relevant. Enjoy Dr. Wecht's book!

[Abby Normal]

[/B][/I]

It certainly IS a conundrum, not helped much by the fact that the police made a total hash of the investigation! From all the footprints and foot traffic in and around that house, I would be prepared to swear that the Brigade of Guards used their property to drill! A police detective I know who was familiar with the case said he would have tackled John Ramsey the moment he informed the police that he was *leaving* to go somewhere with a packed bag! Insane! This is a case muddied by money and influence. I personally believe that John Ramsey killed his daughter, perhaps by accident, and due to the power he held saw over his wife and surviving child, they covered it up. I have nothing more to go on than hunch and instincts, and having been around a lot of pedophiles I encountered while a Corrections Officer. John Ramsey seems *off* to me. I recommend Dr. Wecht's book; it's quite compelling.

yeah hes a weird bird. divorced once already. new young wife. rich executive. no tears or even emotion during interviews. his excuse for lawyering up is his friend told him too. i know the type. cold SOB who distances himself from problems and builds layers around him to save his own arse. one of the first cops on the scene said she put her hand on her gun when she came face to face with him because she beleived she was talking to a murderer. the DA is a coward too...your right power and money.. the DA was scared and didnt want to deal with it.

i checked out that book and will be getting. thanks for the heads up.

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

hi hib
yeah its a total conundrum of a case. at this point im at like 45% it was a family member(probably patsy), 40% intruder and 15% something having to do with the maid.

you have the sexualization of a child by the parents with the pagent stuff, possible previous abuse, patsy not being able to be ruled out on the ramsom note, which contained his bonus amount, her/their belongings as the murder weapon, their guilty behavior post murder-lawyering up immediately, constant interviews that look more like pr stunts, no tears or visceral reactions etc., and the sheer rareness of a child being murdered in her own home while the parents are there!?! a violent sexual attack throughout the house that apparently lasted a while and the parents dont wake up? also, what innocent parent wouldnt search every freakin INCH of their house the second they realized their daughter was missing? and as you mention, no real solid outside suspects. Many of the police on the scene first impression was that the ramseys had something to do with it as did tje lead detective.

i lean toward family murder, and i dont rule out burke either. however, that being said, i still think an outside intruder or the maid could be involved also, but that also has its myriad of problems and things that dont make sense too. no matter who did it and why this is an extremely weird and complicated case.

It certainly IS a conundrum, not helped much by the fact that the police made a total hash of the investigation! From all the footprints and foot traffic in and around that house, I would be prepared to swear that the Brigade of Guards used their property to drill! A police detective I know who was familiar with the case said he would have tackled John Ramsey the moment he informed the police that he was *leaving* to go somewhere with a packed bag! Insane! This is a case muddied by money and influence. I personally believe that John Ramsey killed his daughter, perhaps by accident, and due to the power he held saw over his wife and surviving child, they covered it up. I have nothing more to go on than hunch and instincts, and having been around a lot of pedophiles I encountered while a Corrections Officer. John Ramsey seems *off* to me. I recommend Dr. Wecht's book; it's quite compelling.

[Abby Normal]

Agreed. I have read renowned pathologist/coroner Dr. Cyril Wecht's book and he strongly implicates the father. Specifically, he states that JonBenet had older scars of vaginal trauma that had healed, implying that outrages had occurred long before her death. I have always suspected the family because the note, the lack of any other real suspects, and most importantly, the attitudes and flat out guilty behavior by the Ramseys just cannot be dismissed.

hi hib
yeah its a total conundrum of a case. at this point im at like 45% it was a family member(probably patsy), 40% intruder and 15% something having to do with the maid.

you have the sexualization of a child by the parents with the pagent stuff, possible previous abuse, patsy not being able to be ruled out on the ramsom note, which contained his bonus amount, her/their belongings as the murder weapon, their guilty behavior post murder-lawyering up immediately, constant interviews that look more like pr stunts, no tears or visceral reactions etc., and the sheer rareness of a child being murdered in her own home while the parents are there!?! a violent sexual attack throughout the house that apparently lasted a while and the parents dont wake up? also, what innocent parent wouldnt search every freakin INCH of their house the second they realized their daughter was missing? and as you mention, no real solid outside suspects. Many of the police on the scene first impression was that the ramseys had something to do with it as did tje lead detective.

i lean toward family murder, and i dont rule out burke either. however, that being said, i still think an outside intruder or the maid could be involved also, but that also has its myriad of problems and things that dont make sense too. no matter who did it and why this is an extremely weird and complicated case.

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

watching this doc now, havent seen it before and it looks like its the most recent but i dont know what year it came out, but its after patsy died and John Ramsey looks much older and is giving new interviews.

one thing this one says is that the autopsy shows she had evidence of previous sexual abuse. If true, not good for the parents.

Agreed. I have read renowned pathologist/coroner Dr. Cyril Wecht's book and he strongly implicates the father. Specifically, he states that JonBenet had older scars of vaginal trauma that had healed, implying that outrages had occurred long before her death. I have always suspected the family because the note, the lack of any other real suspects, and most importantly, the attitudes and flat out guilty behavior by the Ramseys just cannot be dismissed.

[Abby Normal]

The supposed DNA under the fingernails could easily have been contaminated. One of the lead policemen on the case - Steve Thomas said that the nail clippers used to take samples from JonBenet hadn't been sterilised [ or something like that ], properly, and that a different set of clippers should have been used for each nail [ they were not ].
Regarding the maid she hadn't been sacked before the murder and she had asked Patsy Ramsey for a £2000 dollar loan , mainly for dental work. Which Patsy had agreed to , taking so much back a month out of the maids future paychecks. If we are to look at an intruder the maids husband seems more likely . A man who did have a few brushes with the law and was known to have helped carry the Xmas decorations up from the basement to adorn the house with, including upstairs. He could easily have got the maids key [ sorry her name escapes me ], and he could have taken the paper and the pen at an earlier date then replaced it before anyone realised it was missing . Trouble is , would he do that though ? Why not just use your own paper and pen.

Regards Darryl

hi dk
because kidnapping was never the original intention. and yes the maid could definitely have been involved. she could have known jons bonus amount that was referred to in the note.

[Darryl Kenyon]

The supposed DNA under the fingernails could easily have been contaminated. One of the lead policemen on the case - Steve Thomas said that the nail clippers used to take samples from JonBenet hadn't been sterilised [ or something like that ], properly, and that a different set of clippers should have been used for each nail [ they were not ].
Regarding the maid she hadn't been sacked before the murder and she had asked Patsy Ramsey for a £2000 dollar loan , mainly for dental work. Which Patsy had agreed to , taking so much back a month out of the maids future paychecks. If we are to look at an intruder the maids husband seems more likely . A man who did have a few brushes with the law and was known to have helped carry the Xmas decorations up from the basement to adorn the house with, including upstairs. He could easily have got the maids key [ sorry her name escapes me ], and he could have taken the paper and the pen at an earlier date then replaced it before anyone realised it was missing . Trouble is , would he do that though ? Why not just use your own paper and pen.

Regards Darryl

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Thanks Abby for this infomation , i wasnt aware of the fingernail marks Around her neck, which surley indicated she was indeed struggling to free herself and that the blow that killed her came later .

So yes ,in JBR case its a little hard to make them marks after your skulls been caved in .

Except, Fishy, that expert opinion is divided on whether the marks around her neck were caused by fingernails.

[FISHY1118]

hi parisi
yes i think the violent blow to the head could indicate rage and anger. and or simply someone who got off on violence. one thing im pretty sure of is it was cause if death and the final act of violence against her. it rules out one police theory that it came first, like an accident or that patsy hit her first in anger over bed wetting, realized it was fatal and staged all the rest. (ive never bought that theory at all)
there were little finger nail marks around tje ligature mark in her neck, indicating she was clawing at it trying to get it off or alleviate tje pressure, so of course was alive while being garroted. the head blow was the last and fatal act IMHO.

unknown dna is either from an unknown intruder, or a total red herring. as in like maybe a total innocent person that was chance transfer.
there being two matching samples on two seperate places on her clothes is big pointer to an outside intruder though. and yet no matches in codis in all this time nor have they been able to find the killer based on the dna technique they used to catch the GSK. very strange. maybe the DNA is too messed up/incomplete to ever match someone? i dont know, but it sure seem weird there is no match to codis database after all these years.

this case is a total goat rope.

Thanks Abby for this infomation , i wasnt aware of the fingernail marks Around her neck, which surley indicated she was indeed struggling to free herself and that the blow that killed her came later .

Just off topic ,kinda reminds me of the discussion i was having with Trevor a while back about Eddowes when he declared the cuts to her eyelids and face could have been as a result of the killer slashing at her as she struggled. Which was utter nonsense of course , as is known Eddowes was indeed rendered unconsious then had her throat cut befor she had any mutilation done to her face or body.

So yes ,in JBR case its a little hard to make them marks after your skulls been caved in .

[Parisi North Humber]

Ah well, as I said I must have misread something.

Helen x

[Abby Normal]

Thanks for replying Abby. You're more clued up on the details than I, as such do you know if unknown male DNA was found under her fingernails? I probably imagined reading it but if it was there then it leaves little room for accidental/random/unrelated deposits on her clothing, that is of course reliant on the two samples matching. It is indeed mighty strange that the sample has never flagged in CODIS, somebody knows how to work the system one way or another.

Helen x

hi i dont know if dna was ever found under her fingernails.

[Parisi North Humber]

Thanks for replying Abby. You're more clued up on the details than I, as such do you know if unknown male DNA was found under her fingernails? I probably imagined reading it but if it was there then it leaves little room for accidental/random/unrelated deposits on her clothing, that is of course reliant on the two samples matching. It is indeed mighty strange that the sample has never flagged in CODIS, somebody knows how to work the system one way or another.

Helen x

[Abby Normal]

If it was Burke then who did the unknown DNA belong to? Or are we thinking compromised evidence and/or chain of evidence tampering etc type scenario?

Helen x

hi parisi
yes i think the violent blow to the head could indicate rage and anger. and or simply someone who got off on violence. one thing im pretty sure of is it was cause if death and the final act of violence against her. it rules out one police theory that it came first, like an accident or that patsy hit her first in anger over bed wetting, realized it was fatal and staged all the rest. (ive never bought that theory at all)
there were little finger nail marks around tje ligature mark in her neck, indicating she was clawing at it trying to get it off or alleviate tje pressure, so of course was alive while being garroted. the head blow was the last and fatal act IMHO.

unknown dna is either from an unknown intruder, or a total red herring. as in like maybe a total innocent person that was chance transfer.
there being two matching samples on two seperate places on her clothes is big pointer to an outside intruder though. and yet no matches in codis in all this time nor have they been able to find the killer based on the dna technique they used to catch the GSK. very strange. maybe the DNA is too messed up/incomplete to ever match someone? i dont know, but it sure seem weird there is no match to codis database after all these years.

this case is a total goat rope.

[FISHY1118]

I believe brother Burke murdered his sister, motive unknown. There is no hard evidence to support this, but it's founded on the suspicion that Burke was psychotic at the time. I think Burke had long been aware he was different from others his age, in terms of normal human emotions such as feelings of guilt, remorse, humor, selfishness, classic symptoms of what is termed psychopathy. As early as 1950 it was known that psychopathic children first become aware they're different from others their age at about age 8 (some believe even earlier) at which time they begin to mimic the emotions and reactions of other children (sorrow, fear, guilt, remorse etc.) and thus learn to quietly fit in with normal human actions and reactions. Whether his parents were aware of his condition is unknown, but as to the murder itself, I think the parents knew what happened and immediately went into cover-up mode. It's obvious to me that Patsy wrote the so-called kidnap letter and John likely carried his daughter's body to the basement storeroom to be discovered by his neighbor later. Nothing I've read since the time of the murder suggests any other reasonable solution.

Nothing you,ve read since the time of the murder suggest any other ''reasonable solution'' . Wow that suprizes me .

[Harry D]

Thus far, no one has questioned my theory that Burke may have been psychopathic, although admittedly there is no medical or scientific evidence to back this up.

Maybe you missed it but I call this into doubt. Like you readily admit, there's no evidence at all to support the accusation that Burke was psychopathic. There's also no way the Ramseys would've let him return to school so soon or be questioned by the Grand Jury having gone to such lengths to cover for him.