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Amy Wallace, was she involved?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    There are things missing though. I’ve just started going through it again a couple of witnesses at a time and I noticed this when I looked at the phone operators. Annie Robertson said that she put the call through from William err...I mean the callerat 7.20. Oliver tells Wright that the first call was at 7.15. He tells the Judge that it’s in Louisa Alfred’s testimony but when you look at Alfred’s testimony there’s no mention of it.

    Perhaps slightly concerning for us if we consider what the transcriber felt was worth recording?
    Did they mean testimony as in what she'd said in court that day, or a police statement of some kind? If you look on like, the opening page it seems to be an official court notes taking company etc. so I presume it's the fullest "official" version out there and presume they were the ones actually at the trial taking the official notes.

    However there were also many members of the press there and so if anything is missing it might be in the papers. Or Wyndham-Brown.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post

      Did they mean testimony as in what she'd said in court that day, or a police statement of some kind? If you look on like, the opening page it seems to be an official court notes taking company etc. so I presume it's the fullest "official" version out there and presume they were the ones actually at the trial taking the official notes.

      However there were also many members of the press there and so if anything is missing it might be in the papers. Or Wyndham-Brown.
      Oliver did say “witness Alfreds said...”

      I’m sure that this is the fullest version though.

      I’ve also been looking at a few locations on Google maps and it’s interesting to see a couple of the houses are still there. Annie Robertson’s for eg.

      Believe it or not I didn’t know Wyndham-Brown was available online. I’d just never checked so cheers for that. Another one to read through.
      Regards

      Herlock




      “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
      “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
      “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
      “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
      “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

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      • #63
        It’s also a pity that the exhibits weren’t photographed. I’d love to have seen exhibit no. 53, the envelope that Beattie wrote the message on. I wonder what happened to it?
        Regards

        Herlock




        “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
        “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
        “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
        “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
        “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

        Comment


        • #64
          I have to repeat it but...

          Menlove Avenue was 2-3 miles long. Wallace was working under the natural assumption that MGE was somewhere off Menlove Avenue. Yet he got there a mere 10 minutes before his meeting. Is that really believable?
          Regards

          Herlock




          “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
          “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
          “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
          “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
          “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
            It’s also a pity that the exhibits weren’t photographed. I’d love to have seen exhibit no. 53, the envelope that Beattie wrote the message on. I wonder what happened to it?
            Was Wallace told by Beattie that Qualtrough had asked where he lived? Probably. So a better solution for Wallace would have been to drop Qualtrough a line on a postcard (it would arrive next day) suggesting he call at Wallace’s house the next day at lunch time (Wallace usually went home for lunch) or in the evening any time after say 6 30 pm. Obviously the postcard would never arrive at MGE, so that would be that.It would be interesting to be able to see that note though.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
              I have to repeat it but...

              Menlove Avenue was 2-3 miles long. Wallace was working under the natural assumption that MGE was somewhere off Menlove Avenue. Yet he got there a mere 10 minutes before his meeting. Is that really believable?
              As I think I mentioned though Menlove Gardens West ,turns out onto Menlove Ave. And once the correct tram was caught thanks to help from the pestered conductors, the conductor or one of the passengers on that tram would help to put him off at MGW. The understanding Being that East must be in that immediate area. Still he WAS pressed for time and it was a cold miserable night . Something not right with the whole thing.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                I have to repeat it but...

                Menlove Avenue was 2-3 miles long. Wallace was working under the natural assumption that MGE was somewhere off Menlove Avenue. Yet he got there a mere 10 minutes before his meeting. Is that really believable?
                That all depends on whether you take a tram that will drop you at a stop close to the location doesn't it, which ironically you can best achieve by asking the tram workers.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by moste View Post

                  Was Wallace told by Beattie that Qualtrough had asked where he lived? Probably. So a better solution for Wallace would have been to drop Qualtrough a line on a postcard (it would arrive next day) suggesting he call at Wallace’s house the next day at lunch time (Wallace usually went home for lunch) or in the evening any time after say 6 30 pm. Obviously the postcard would never arrive at MGE, so that would be that.It would be interesting to be able to see that note though.
                  Its not mentioned in the trial Moste. In fact when I first mentioned it a year or more ago Rod said that it hadn’t happened and that Murphy had possibly made it up as he was the only writer to have mentioned it when he wrote his book (although I think Gannon mentioned it in his book too which was after Murphy.) But Antony confirmed that it was in Beattie’s police statement.
                  Regards

                  Herlock




                  “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                  “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                  “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                  “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                  “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post

                    That all depends on whether you take a tram that will drop you at a stop close to the location doesn't it, which ironically you can best achieve by asking the tram workers.
                    But Wallace didn’t know the streets. How would he have known that MGE wasn’t at the other end of the estate 20 minutes walk away?

                    I used to have an online map of the area but I must have accidentally selected it. Likewise a map of the tram routes. I don’t usually delete Wallace stuff but these maps have gone. Do you have any decent maps of the time, area and tram routes? Me and maps don’t get on. Like you a chess timetables
                    Regards

                    Herlock




                    “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                    “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                    “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                    “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                    “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                      But Wallace didn’t know the streets. How would he have known that MGE wasn’t at the other end of the estate 20 minutes walk away?

                      I used to have an online map of the area but I must have accidentally selected it. Likewise a map of the tram routes. I don’t usually delete Wallace stuff but these maps have gone. Do you have any decent maps of the time, area and tram routes? Me and maps don’t get on. Like you a chess timetables
                      It couldn't be 20 minutes that'd be madness, like if the closest tram stop to that address is a 20 minute walk then lmao. Can you imagine? That'd be tragic rofl. Especially in era where barely anyone had cars.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post

                        It couldn't be 20 minutes that'd be madness, like if the closest tram stop to that address is a 20 minute walk then lmao. Can you imagine? That'd be tragic rofl. Especially in era where barely anyone had cars.
                        I don’t mean 20 minutes to Menlove Avenue.

                        My point is that Wallace arrived at his final stop that night at 7.20. He was working from the assumption that MGE was somewhere off Menlove Avenue; a road that is 2-3 miles long. The whole estate was a large one and it was one that Wallace was, according to him, unfamiliar with. And so, for all Wallace had known, MGE might have been at the far side of the estate - a walk of 15 or 20 minutes perhaps? Also Wallace was, according to him, unfamiliar with the trams (having to pester conductors on where to get his next tram. He hadn’t planned his journey so he was relying on luck for his connections. He gets off one tram and there’s one in the loop that he catches. What if there hadn’t have been one waiting and he’d had to wait 5 minutes for the next one? This would have left him 5 minutes to find MGE. What if he’d waited 2 minutes for another tram? Waiting for trams is perfectly normal of course. Now he has 3 minutes to find MGE in a strange area.

                        Can we really, genuinely believe that the meticulous, intelligent Wallace, chasing a potentially lucrative piece of business in an unfamiliar area and on a tram route for which he didn’t know the times, would have let this mission so late? I don’t think so.
                        Regards

                        Herlock




                        “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                        “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                        “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                        “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                        “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I know I meant Gardens. Imagine if you lived at the Gardens and your NEAREST tram stop was over 20 minutes away loool. How tragic would that be... There were numerous stops along every major road just as you would expect.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Man like I can't believe people still buy the original prosecution idea of this man doing all of this alone. Looool. There are AT LEAST three separate people telling you there is more than one person involved in this, to still just accept the real life Poirot episode bizarity... Of this guy single handedly doing all this instead of like, obviously, poisoning her then chucking her dead body down the stairs (at most)... Like setting up a BRUTAL slaying relying on sheer luck in like almost every area when there are easier options, and beyond that the sheer COMPLEXITY of it all - ALL based on the prejudice that he played chess and people's belief he is something like Gary Kasparov.

                            It's honestly preposterous. It would be different if not for the fact there are actual witnesses saying he didn't do this alone. Witnesses who saw him speaking to Mr. X etc. Like really? Is that REALLY not the more simple solution? Really? It's actually more simple that he sets up a fake meeting at a fake address with a fake man then batters his wife to death and carries off the weapon, using milk boys for alibis...

                            Like, that was really the most obvious way to him to kill his wife? Like it had to be that weird and odd, like there was no better easier way to do it? The only way was to conjure up a scheme that is literally so complicated as to be something from an actual movie script or TV drama? Really?

                            I think 90% of people convict him solely because of this idea of the man as a chess wizard carefully conceiving every possible outcome. Have you seen how REAL chess players including grandmasters have killed people? The answer: In the exact same obvious ways as everyone else.

                            The perfect murder is one that's never even investigated as a murder.
                            Last edited by WallaceWackedHer; 02-23-2020, 11:59 AM.

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                            • #74
                              I’m just looking at this journey dispassionately.

                              He walks the 500 yards to his first stop - 5 minutes.

                              He has to take three trams to get to Menlove Avenue - 30 minutes.

                              We know for a fact that he doesn't plan the journey using timetables because he’s reliant on conductors to tell him where to get on and off and which trams to use.

                              We know that Liverpool had a good tram service and that a passenger wouldn’t have expected to have waited longer than around 8 minutes for a tram (I recall either Antony or Rod posting something to this effect although I’m not 100% on 8 minutes but it was around that figure)

                              We know that when anyone takes this kind of journey (without checking timetables) you cannot bank on jumping from one tram and straight onto another. Luckily Wallace didn’t have to wait.

                              So if Wallace had just missed one tram he would have arrived 5, 6, 7 or even 8 minutes later.

                              This would have left him (a meticulous, well organised man going to a meeting for business which he expected to have been profitable) 5, 4, 3 or even just 2 minutes to search for an address which, for all he’d known, might have been a 20 minute walk from his final stop.

                              Whichever way you look at it this isn’t believable. He doesn’t even take the simple expedient of checking a directory or a map. He doesn’t even make a quick call to Crewe for a pointer or two.

                              ~~~

                              Who are the three people telling us that there were more people involved?

                              ~~~

                              This isn’t a complex plan for Wallace. It’s very simple and only one person could have been certain that Wallace would have done what he did. Wallace himself. He’s not banking on Close at all. Close was just incidental. If Wallace expected him at all he’d have expected him earlier because Close was late. If Wallace had decided not to bother going them Mr X’s plan falls. If Wallace had given up sooner and come back Mr X’s available window would have narrowed. If Wallace had decided not to go to chess Mr X’s plan would fall. If Julia had simply refused to let anyone in Mr X’s plan falls. None of these are an issue if it was Wallace.

                              There’s no evidence of any kind of conspiracy here apart from Lillian Hall and when we read her testimony we can see that she was pretty obviously mistaken. The only other thing is the idea that Parry was a likelier phone caller, but apart from the fact that we cannot prove that it wasn’t him then there’s nothing there.

                              ~~~

                              You say that we only accuse him because we see him as some kind of chess wizard. That’s transparently not the case WWH. Come on, he was a second tier player in an average chess club. But what does the evidence point to with regard to the type of person William was. He was intelligent, not a genius of course, but an intelligent man. From his work record and his record keeping he was the kind of person that did things by the book. Not really the type of person to say “hey, who cares, I’ll just wing it and hope for a bit of luck.” Especially in matters of business like a meeting with a prospective client.

                              I genuinely believe that the reason many people don’t wish to accuse William because he looks the kindly, silver-haired old gent. Someone’s Uncle William.

                              ~~~

                              All other theories require leaps of faith. To try and exonerate William we have to repeatedly come up with excuses for him. It’s a bit like playing twister. It’s like ‘everyone loves William’ and they’ll go to any lengths for him. I’m convinced that if a mock trial took place now, with what we know and the thinking that been done, Wallace would be found guilty. I’m even thinking of writing a piece called “the very obvious questions that Hemmerde missed.” Or alternatively, “was Hemmerde actually on Oliver’s side?” Virtually every time I read about the case, as I have been recently, I see something else that points to William and away from any other scenario. I’ve never been more convinced that Wallace was guilty.
                              Regards

                              Herlock




                              “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                              “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                              “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                              “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                              “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Or if William had dropped Mr. X a line, the plan fails. It may be considered unlikely that Wallace would cause an extra day delay in securing an extra client to his rota. But it occurred to me , that the dialogue between Beattie and ‘Qualtrough’ nowhere mentioned the unlikely reasoning behind the odd phone call. What I’m getting at is, Mr Qualtrough would be calling because ,The Prudential’ and in particular,( very particular) Mr. Wallace, came very highly recommended. The dialogue I feel is quite suspect, If for example the caller had said something along the lines,’ ..I’m close friends with a chap, a Mr. XXX from such and such a street in the Clubmore area and Mr.Wallace’s name came up as someone for me to contact...and so on. Or , My father in law a Mr. XXX recommended I should call because he knows Mr. Wallace from his visits to his home in Richmond Hill. That kind of conversation. But no, there is an element of maybe not ambiguity exactly ,but untrustworthy enough to sway Wallace away from such a trip, if you get my drift.

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