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  • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post


    I miss pen and paper letters.

    You still using Postal Orders too? I've told you, cheques are the future Herlock. Get with the times.
    Thems the Vagaries.....

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post

      You still using Postal Orders too? I've told you, cheques are the future Herlock. Get with the times.
      I only use Postal Orders to give my nephews their £2 birthday presents Al.

      Regards

      Herlock




      “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
      “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
      “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
      “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
      “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

        I only use Postal Orders to give my nephews their £2 birthday presents Al.
        Yeah, I used to get one every year from my Gran! Trip to Woolworths. New cap gun and some Airfix Commando's or such. Ah, a more gentle age.
        Thems the Vagaries.....

        Comment


        • Doesn't help solve the Wallace case admittedly....
          Thems the Vagaries.....

          Comment


          • I’ve said this before but one thing that really stands out as odd for me is when Dolly (I think it was her) said that Parkes story was common knowledge around the garage. We all know how most people are about keeping stuff to themselves; especially something as ‘wow’ as this. Fred mentions it to Bill telling him to keep it to himself then Bill mentions it to his brother who tells his mate in the pub etc. I find it hard to believe that this story was kept under wraps for 50 years. Then this guy (am I remembering correctly that his name was Thompson?) asks for 2 grand to introduce Wilkes to Parkes. Why didn’t he try to break this news earlier? Surely he might have felt that some newspaper might have been willing to cough up a few quid?
            Regards

            Herlock




            “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
            “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
            “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
            “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
            “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post
              Doesn't help solve the Wallace case admittedly....
              I already have.

              Only joking.........or am I?
              Regards

              Herlock




              “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
              “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
              “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
              “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
              “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post

                Yeah, I used to get one every year from my Gran! Trip to Woolworths. New cap gun and some Airfix Commando's or such. Ah, a more gentle age.
                I can imagine WWH reading this and thinking “what are those two old fogeys on about?”

                An old fogey at 54
                Regards

                Herlock




                “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                  I take your point about it appearing to seem like picking and choosing evidence when you have Dolly and, I think, one of her brothers confirming Parkes mention of Parry’s visit and we have no reason to accuse the Atkinson’s of lying. Maybe Parry did visit the garage. Maybe Parkes felt that he was acting strangely. And maybe after hearing of the murder he added the rest?
                  I think Gordon Atkinson wasn't a brother but a son of one of them (I am not fact checking and am writing from memory so be wary), and said he had heard "this particular account" of the Wallace case many times from his dad and uncles etc.

                  I know there were various rumours about Parry because his sister I think had to swap universities because of it? Something like that. There was one about the bar down a grid outside Lily's cinema, Ada Cook relayed that. But what else?

                  Regarding your suggestion that is also what I was thinking. I don't doubt a car wash took place. Josh thinks the car wash might have been after the police interview (which ran overnight into the morning) rather than on the murder night. How common was it for Gordon to be awake into the a.m.?

                  If he really did go the garage that night, even for a hose down, it's not mentioned in his police statement.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post

                    I think Gordon Atkinson wasn't a brother but a son of one of them (I am not fact checking and am writing from memory so be wary), and said he had heard "this particular account" of the Wallace case many times from his dad and uncles etc.

                    I meant that Gordon was a brother of Dolly who I assume was a daughter of the owners? Maybe I’m wrong about Dolly though? I’m glad when you do fact check as you’ve become an encyclopaedia of the case.

                    I know there were various rumours about Parry because his sister I think had to swap universities because of it? Something like that. There was one about the bar down a grid outside Lily's cinema, Ada Cook relayed that. But what else?

                    That University rumour does ring a bell but it wasn’t related to Parkes story was it? I just struggle to accept that the Parkes story didn’t leak out and that no one thought to go to the press with this ‘solution’ to such a famous case.

                    Regarding your suggestion that is also what I was thinking. I don't doubt a car wash took place. Josh thinks the car wash might have been after the police interview (which ran overnight into the morning) rather than on the murder night. How common was it for Gordon to be awake into the a.m.?

                    An interior car clean in the early hours after a terrible local murder. It’s almost asking to be suspected. I agree with you that it’s frustrating though. I don’t believe the mitten/weapon story but it would be good to know how the story originated.

                    If he really did go the garage that night, even for a hose down, it's not mentioned in his police statement.

                    It’s difficult to imagine Moore not getting that drain checked out though. A determination to nail Wallace; a monumental neglect of duty or he was never contacted?
                    Before I vanished didn’t you say that you were hoping to see more files? Was it the police files in Liverpool? Did you go? I haven’t caught up on your website yet until I get my pad back.
                    Regards

                    Herlock




                    “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                    “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                    “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                    “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                    “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                      Before I vanished didn’t you say that you were hoping to see more files? Was it the police files in Liverpool? Did you go? I haven’t caught up on your website yet until I get my pad back.
                      Dolly Atkinson is the wife of Wilfred Atkinson, one of the Atkinson's sons who lived in a flat at the back of the garage. Gordon Atkinson is Dolly Atkinson's son. I have no idea what the rumours about Parry related to, but there was chatter... Didn't Gordon often stop by the garage and stay late chatting to Parkes and the others?

                      Regarding the rumours leaking and nobody saying anything (though it seems the rumour mill was out for Parry as well, for sure), it is also surprising that the Brine alibi which is the only one that mattered was seemingly never mentioned when Gordon, his father, and Lily Lloyd were grilled about it. Lily even said to Wilkes or one of his interviewers I should say, that she did lie about the time he arrived at her house and it was actually later than she said... But that she doesn't think he killed Julia... She had stayed in contact with Gordon, and if she knew about this alibi I don't know why she did not mention it then when by the way she's talking she's trying to clear his name saying she doesn't think he had anything to do with it yadda yadda.

                      Especially so if it was impacting his family's life with his sister switching Uni or whatever. I don't remember where I read that but I know I got it from somewhere.

                      ...

                      Impossible to go to the police station etc. myself because of restrictions, but John Gannon sent me a disc full of both police and Munro files and I have uploaded those. I have more that ought to be put up at some point. I pointed out to him the penned amendments on initial statements, and that by one of Moore's reports it appears these may in fact have been penned on or updated before or after the Committal Trial, rather than at the time... I am missing some important statements I know to be there like Gordon Parry's, the Brine's, and the Lloyd's.

                      Based on his complaints about the Johnston's testimony, the pen updates were made after the original statement was taken and they left. And they then gave different evidence at the Comm Trial which angered him.

                      So any original statement, I might be wary of penned alterations in case they were made at a later date. Might be worth looking at the original before things were crossed out or amended in pen. If amended then all statements including all of William's even to Munro state that he asked the Johnstons to wait outside. And the original John Johnston statement would read (Florence made a statement with the same exact part amended by pen in the same way):

                      He said he would try again and he went to the back door and I saw him go into the house. He turned as he was going into the door and said “Wait a minute. I’ll see if everything is all right. I know she won’t be out she has such a bad cold.”
                      And to Munro the conversation would go like this:

                      My wife said “Good evening, Mr. Wallace”. I thought by the sound of his voice that he was anxious. he said “Have you heard anything unusual tonight?” My wife said “No, what has happened?” He said “I’ve been out and find I can’t open the front door. It’s been bolted against me”. I asked him “Have you tried the back kitchen door?” He said “Yes, I couldn’t open it”. I said “That’s funny, try it again and I’ll wait”.
                      If penned changes on statements are after the day the statement was taken which Moore seems to be implying, I am then more interested to see the actual photographs of Gordon (etc)'s statements in case there are lots of things similarly crossed out or changed. I ALSO want to see statements or confirmations at least that the other alibis Gordon gave from the time after the Brine's to meeting his girlfriend were checked, e.g. the Post Office staff, Walter Hignett, Williamson.

                      If he legitimately got to Lily's place later than he said and they've lied about that, then I would be thinking about the motivation to do so when there's already an alibi fixed in place. Amendments on their statements might offer more insight since authors just give the amended form, there might be stuff crossed out that would be of use. Including for the Monday actually.

                      ...

                      Someone mentioned framing Gordon as a possibility if William thought he was doing his wife (heard about the musical interludes or w.e.). He could have done something VERY insidious then, by having Gordon ring the club and then go to the house and let himself in the back, giving some stupid pretext. You could actually successfully frame somebody that way even today, because if you have them actually go to the scene their DNA would be everywhere.

                      That would be extremely sinister. The victim would never ever be believed, it'd be so open and shut seeming.

                      A personal vendetta like that would explain going after Gordon even after acquittal etc. if his goal was actually to eliminate them both, and possibly also match testimony from Parkes if that became verified fact.

                      I don't trust the Johnstons at all, I might consider the period from where William returns home to when the police actually arrive to be a grey area. I think they are a bit deceitful and/or know more than they're letting on. I would advise against taking their statements at face value. As I will repeat yet again, they are the only witnesses flagged up as being deceitful (the other being Crewe). If John or one of his kids or w.e. is in fact the person who burgled #17 Wolverton Street the month prior that's pretty good blackmail to anyone aware of that fact... Florence and Julia are good friends and they're next door neighbours, so you see how it could become known.
                      Last edited by WallaceWackedHer; 09-01-2020, 07:12 PM.

                      Comment


                      • From Roger Wilkes and the man who interviewed John Parkes, Mike Green:

                        I spoke to Mike Green who has a copy of the unedited interview with John Parkes, and he listened through to it for me, sending me the following notes:

                        John Parkes talks about the bloody glove and hosing the car down inside and out. He also says that the police later took possession of the car and examined it for blood, but found nothing.

                        He says Parry claimed to have dropped an iron bar down a drain in front of a doctor’s house in Priory Road. There’s no description of the bar (or where it came from) and Parkes said he saw nothing else in the vehicle apart from the bloody glove, which he says was like a leather mitten.

                        He claims he was told that Parry borrowed thigh boots and a mac from two people before the murder, but he was dressed “normally” when he visited with the motor car, a “dicky” Swift. He says the car was Parry’s own, not his father’s and he often brought it round.

                        Interestingly, he claims that the police staked out the garage after the murder and warned him that he needed to be careful using the back alley from his house, implying they were suspicious of Parry.

                        He also says Parry turned up a few days later with a man of similar age and implies that he might have been an accomplice.

                        Parkes says he told Gordon Atkinson and his two sons what had happened the day after Parry visited.

                        He does not mention Dolly.

                        If you use any of this, please credit Mike Green as the interviewer.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post
                          From Roger Wilkes and the man who interviewed John Parkes, Mike Green:
                          Parkes' statement to Mike Green is at odds with my previous understanding of how his statement to the police was received. This is the first time I have heard the police staked out the garage or that he was told to worry about Parry down a back alley. This to protect Parkes when the police were convinced Wallace was the killer? No search for the weapon in a drain that has been pointed out to them. Dolly did not mention a police stake out, and you'd think she would. I think I am less inclined to believe Parkes than before.
                          Last edited by etenguy; 09-02-2020, 08:32 PM.

                          Comment


                          • I have just re-listened to the radio city broadcast about the Julia Wallace murder by Roger Wilkes. There were a couple of things I found interesting.
                            a) John Parkes knew who William Wallace was and that he was a 'friend' of Gordon Parry.
                            b) John Parkes said the mac Parry borrowed to go fishing was from a policeman.
                            c) In the Wilkes interview, John Parkes said it was Atkinson who told him not to use the back alley in the dark after Parry had turned up a few days after the murder with a friend.
                            d) Dolly Atkinson and Gordon Atkinson (Dolly's son) both remember Parkes telling the car wash story, neither mentioned a police stake out.
                            e) Parkes said the car seemed clean to him before he washed it - he made no mention of blood inside the car, except for a bloodied mitten.
                            f) It is odd that Parry did not only say he dropped the bar down a drain, but that it was in Priory Road and even more specific that it was in front of a doctors (very specific indeed).
                            Last edited by etenguy; 09-02-2020, 11:24 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by etenguy View Post

                              Parkes' statement to Mike Green is at odds with my previous understanding of how his statement to the police was received. This is the first time I have heard the police staked out the garage or that he was told to worry about Parry down a back alley. This to protect Parkes when the police were convinced Wallace was the killer? No search for the weapon in a drain that has been pointed out to them. Dolly did not mention a police stake out, and you'd think she would. I think I am less inclined to believe Parkes than before.
                              Staking out the garage sounds like a lie.

                              Conceivably they might have if they wanted to find the "other man" (or were just on the lookout for anyone shady having their car washed out), but it's a little strange to imagine otherwise, if you picture them sitting there waiting for Gordon.

                              Gordon was investigated as a prime suspect but evidently that just stopped. Parry's sister or something said he and the car was checked, which is backed up there by Parkes regarding the car.

                              It doesn't make sense with when the story was told to Hugh Moore. If he dismissed it outright then why are they having the place staked out?

                              I thought Parkes told the cops after the arrest. Which realistically didn't take long at all (it's like, a week until they are trying to find ways to arrest William)...

                              It's from the same exact interview (just unedited) so I have been curious to hear it myself. I mean did the guy mishear about the back alley? He said the Atkinsons told him that and that the cops dismissed him... At least it sounds like that on the Radio City broadcast... Or was it the Atkinsons told him to be careful using the alley to the garage?

                              But he can't have been outright dismissed if all of this happened with advice about the back alley and garage stake outs. The "you must have been mistaken" part must have been after all this if true, for example after they took the drains up and there was nothing there... Maybe the car was checked after the tip as opposed to before as well...

                              The bit about the car wash, 5 shillings, and the other man around Gordon's age is probably about right. There's actually no reason to invent another man when this statement was made to the radio people before anybody had ever heard of the alibi. Police stake outs, bars down grids, and items soaked in blood sound like they might be embellished. If the cops did check the grid then probably a mistake or rumour Parkes had relayed.
                              Last edited by WallaceWackedHer; 09-03-2020, 02:02 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post
                                Staking out the garage sounds like a lie.

                                Conceivably they might have if they wanted to find the "other man" (or were just on the lookout for anyone shady having their car washed out), but it's a little strange to imagine otherwise, if you picture them sitting there waiting for Gordon.

                                It doesn't make sense with when the story was told to Hugh Moore. If he dismissed it outright then why are they having the place staked out?

                                I thought Parkes told the cops after the arrest. Which realistically didn't take long at all (it's like, a week until they are trying to find ways to arrest William)...
                                At the very least an embellishment - though in the interview Parkes says that Moore dismissed his story as a mistake so definitely inconsistent.

                                Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post
                                Gordon was investigated as a prime suspect but evidently that just stopped. Parry's sister or something said he and the car was checked, which is backed up there by Parkes regarding the car.
                                I believe Parry was checked out during the two or three days after the murder, and his car (or a car) was checked by the police. If Parkes is lying, the car wash could have been inspired by hearing about the checks.

                                Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post
                                It's from the same exact interview (just unedited) so I have been curious to hear it myself. I mean did the guy mishear about the back alley? He said the Atkinsons told him that and that the cops dismissed him... At least it sounds like that on the Radio City broadcast... Or was it the Atkinsons told him to be careful using the alley to the garage?
                                That's my understanding from the interview that was broadcast - Atkinson warned about the back Alley, the police (Moore) dismissed Parkes' story.

                                Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post
                                But he can't have been outright dismissed if all of this happened with advice about the back alley and garage stake outs. The "you must have been mistaken" part must have been after all this if true, for example after they took the drains up and there was nothing there... Maybe the car was checked after the tip as opposed to before as well...
                                The Atkinsons seemed to believe Parkes, hence the avoid the dark back alley remark. I have only seen reference to Parry's car being checked before Parkes said anything to the police.

                                Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post
                                The bit about the car wash, 5 shillings, and the other man around Gordon's age is probably about right. There's actually no reason to invent another man when this statement was made to the radio people before anybody had ever heard of the alibi. Police stake outs, bars down grids, and items soaked in blood sound like they might be embellished. If the cops did check the grid then probably a mistake or rumour Parkes had relayed.
                                It does sound like a statement made up of the rumours, except Parkes did tell the Atkinsons the day after the murder before some of the investigation had taken place. Though how the story grew and became embellished is not entirely clear - Dolly only talked about the car wash - nothing about drains and bars. I can quite believe that Parry visited the garage with a friend after the murder, but Parkes did not suggest he was threatened by him - only that Atkinson suggested he avoid the dark back alley.

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