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  • OneRound
    replied
    Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post
    ...

    Did you know they use this case in law schools as a prime example of a miscarriage of justice? Did you know that?
    Hi WWH and all - just catching up on some recent posts. For my sins, I'm a law man and did know that as indeed I should.

    It does seem at times there's a strong agreement going on here. I feel it's fair to say that the likes of Caz (great to see her back having perhaps taken a wrong turn off the A6 ) and Herlock (we need you and your clearly set out detailed reasoning to return asap please) only argue for Wallace's guilt on the balance of probabilities and not, as legally required in a criminal trial, as proved beyond reasonable doubt. Herlock has been at pains to state several times that he would not have delivered a guilty verdict whilst Caz recently referred to the Court of Criminal Appeal 'rightly' upholding Wallace's appeal.

    As for me, I too couldn't convict Wallace but still certainly suspect him of planning his wife's murder albeit he may have somehow got someone else to do her in. As Caz and Herlock have well flagged, Wallace's actions in repeatedly asking for directions to Menlove Gardens East and his inactions in not being bothered to consult a map or others before setting off are so dodgy.

    Best regards,
    OneRound

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  • WallaceWackedHer
    replied
    Just to add I'm not positive what type of fire they had in the kitchen but I have a vague recollection Florence helped him put wood in it. So does that make it a wood burning stove? I'll double check whether she said this as my poor memory often leads to me making mistakes.

    My friend Josh doesn't think he would change clothes if he felt he didn't havr to so I think it's not something everyone would do. However I'm PARANOID about forensics, especially watching detective shows, and personally I would absolutely change without question...

    I think it would be easy to get dressed if you already had the clothes laid out in about a minute depending on the complexity of the outfit. If it's just a shirt, trousers, shoes and jacket, I think you could do that very fast.

    Personally if I had to kill Julia, apart from doing a better job of staging, I think I would do it as such... I think I would put on a pair of trousers, socks, shirt, and gloves. I would use something like a hammer wrapped in a layer of sturdy cloth. I would also put on some type of mask while she's down at the fire like a balaclava to avoid hair and face splatter. Such is the extent of my paranoia.

    After killing her I would strip on the spot, take all the clothing to a suitable fireplace that I already had started at a full blaze, and chuck everything in. Change into my new outfit and leave.

    Due to intense forensic paranoia I might even wrap the weapon in ANOTHER cloth and remove it.

    That is personally what I would do.

    I would also not use a weird name or fake address. What I would do is probably set up a meeting at a real address somewhat near a friend's house. Knock on the client's door and realize I've been tricked, then go hang out with my pal (who I'd tell I'll come visit after my business appointment).

    I think I would also exploit a genuine appointment if possible so it looks like sheer coincidence someone broke in while I was away.

    That's how I would do it. I'd use the bloodied gloves to touch a bunch of things I'd later claim were stolen from like drawers etc.

    I think I'd have got away with it.
    Last edited by WallaceWackedHer; 02-27-2020, 10:21 AM.

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  • WallaceWackedHer
    replied
    Originally posted by moste View Post
    Oh yours is a closed stove. Ok! No a shirt would be gone in moments. In fact I have here in B C. A wood burning stove . and this would really be the incinerator to do the job. However we’re talking a lot of clothing on a coal fire . Not wise!
    Mine uses coal or logs (or prebought kindling lol) and it would be only a shirt and pair of trousers. The Wallace's kitchen fireplace is a closed stove too, like it's a real fire but there's a door so just like mine I think.
    Last edited by WallaceWackedHer; 02-27-2020, 08:13 AM.

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  • moste
    replied
    Oh yours is a closed stove. Ok! No a shirt would be gone in moments. In fact I have here in B C. A wood burning stove . and this would really be the incinerator to do the job. However we’re talking a lot of clothing on a coal fire . Not wise!

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  • WallaceWackedHer
    replied
    Originally posted by moste View Post

    Quote: Hang on, regarding the fireplace I see you mentioned a grate, I was thinking of an actual open fireplace if you know what I mean. I think that's what the kitchen one was.
    The kitchen! Of course the kitchen ,you wouldn’t be able to burn clothes on a gas fire! LOL.
    The Grate yes , it’s what the burning coals rest on, and the ash falls through the bars onto the floor of the fire place. I thought you mentioned you had one?
    Yeah I do, I think I'm gonna have to go check my fireplace rn as we speak LOL I've never noticed it before. Since its first use I guess it just has all ash 'n' stuff everywhere and I've never really examined it. I HATE the thing it makes the house too hot even in mid winter.

    However if I were to throw a shirt in there and the fire lasted 2 hours, I am very confident it would be adequately disposed of. At the least I don't suspect there would be any way you could tell it ever used to be a shirt. This thing gets bloody hot... And it has a door you shut like the Wallace's kitchen one if you check the crime scene photos.

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  • moste
    replied
    PS. If the fire was built up really good at say,6 20 pm. By 8 45 pm it would be nearly out ,so Mrs. Johnston’s must have just managed to stoke it back up again, without having to start from scratch ,cleaning out, newspaper, and wood sticks etc I think she actually said ‘We’ll build the fire up William’ must have caught it in time.

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  • moste
    replied


    Quote: Hang on, regarding the fireplace I see you mentioned a grate, I was thinking of an actual open fireplace if you know what I mean. I think that's what the kitchen one was.
    The kitchen! Of course the kitchen ,you wouldn’t be able to burn clothes on a gas fire! LOL.
    The Grate yes , it’s what the burning coals rest on, and the ash falls through the bars onto the floor of the fire place. I thought you mentioned you had one?

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  • moste
    replied
    Originally posted by caz View Post

    Yes, I know that. I thought I had made that crystal clear. MGE did not exist, so MGW would naturally be the next best option for anyone advising Wallace when he asked for MGE. Even if someone absolutely knew there was no MGE, they would not immediately think Wallace had been tricked, but would suggest a mistake had been made and he could try the other Menlove Gardens.



    That's why it was a clever plan, regardless of who the caller was. It allowed Wallace to set off in the right direction, knowing that no matter how many people he might ask for help along the way, he could end up fannying about forever, searching in vain for an address which sounded totally genuine but wasn't.

    I'll get back to you with some thoughts I had recently on the fire, the mackintosh and the lights. That's if the thread is still here when I return. Be good.

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    This is the thing with the situation with Menlove gardens east as I see it. Once on the third tram and being told by the conductor that’ the car has a stop on Menlove Avenue near Menlove Gardens west ( as I’ve mentioned gardens west opens onto Menlove Ave.) and the conductor and any passengers he may want to question have told him they don’t know of any gardens east . He now becomes suspicious, and knocks on any of the first houses he comes to just a couple of minutes from alighting the tram .with one or two people confirming he is indeed on a journey to nowhere, he finally checks in with 25 Menlove Gardens west ,where, assuming there was someone home ,would confirm that there was no Qualtrough at this address, and they’ve never heard of Gardens east. So he can now take it that he’s been duped, and heads for home. Round trip away from Julia ,about 50 minutes. But no, ‘alibi obsessed Bill’ continues on round the Gardens right down Green Lane, calling in at his now familiar bosses house and on to visit with a cop and two shops before giving up.TOO suspicious by far.

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  • WallaceWackedHer
    replied
    The woman got back in touch with me RE: the housebreakers. The one she knew was Patrick Garland. He was quite an outlier, just committed crimes with a guy who much later committed a crime with David Martin who is in the gang I mentioned:




    This was years after 1931.

    The man she knew only broke into shops (Garland), and in the particular case I mentioned which he was charged for, was with George Overen who seemingly knew David Martin but when the two became acquainted (before or after Julia's death) I do not know. Apparently his kids relished in their father's bad boy image, and ended up in jail themselves. They never mentioned the Wallace case.

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  • WallaceWackedHer
    replied
    Originally posted by moste View Post

    Growing up in the houses built in south manchester in the 1920s, we had an open fire in the living room. Our Mum would order 4 bags of Bituminous coal, and a bag of nutty slack , bags were 1 cwt = (112 pounds) Nutty slack was much cheaper , hence after a real blazer was going after about an hour ,we could carefully shovel on nutty slack every once in a while , and still keep a mad hot blaze going.However on a few occasions , we’d get a roasting off Dad for rushing the process, and the slack would choke out the fire before it had chance to get cracking ,so to speak . You know where I’m going with this ? The act of burning clothing on an open fire is not as straight forward as one might imagine, a few things have to be considered. Victorian open grates in terraced houses were typically small,
    chimney size in the late Victorian era had been greatly reduced, and were not kept swept as often as they should have been .The build up of ash/clinker under the grate is also a factor. I would suggest therefore that burning a great wad of clothing would be very foolish ,where time was of the essence.Not only could even a healthy fire be choked out, but also the room could be filled with smoke. For this reason I believe this way of destroying evidence would not have been an option.
    Hang on, regarding the fireplace I see you mentioned a grate, I was thinking of an actual open fireplace if you know what I mean. I think that's what the kitchen one was.

    The kitchen fireplace was burning still when Wallace got home, so had he killed her without assistance it was burning for at least 2 hours (probably a little more since I doubt it was lit seconds before she died), which seems like it had been healthily ablaze for quite some time.

    Is that still not a good option in an open fire? I do not refer to the living room fire. Just curious because you said grid.

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  • moste
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    As would a button in the ashes. Burning can take ages. Fires can burn out leaving Wallace arriving back with a kitchen fire with a half burnt pair of trousers. Not a single solitary chance. If he had massive time yes. Under time pressure no.

    Wallace used the mackintosh. It’s the only explanation. Wallace was guilty. I’m bored with excuses and misdirection. I’m tired of manipulations. We’ve got to the stage where we immediately assume dishonesty in the police but simply ignore it when we have Roland Oliver in black and white lying to Judges. But hey, it doesn’t matter as long as we can exonerate Wallace. I’ve lost interest in bashing my head against a brick wall of twisted logic and bias. Im absolutely despondent about this thread. I’ve no more interest in talking about Teflon William Wallace.
    Growing up in the houses built in south manchester in the 1920s, we had an open fire in the living room. Our Mum would order 4 bags of Bituminous coal, and a bag of nutty slack , bags were 1 cwt = (112 pounds) Nutty slack was much cheaper , hence after a real blazer was going after about an hour ,we could carefully shovel on nutty slack every once in a while , and still keep a mad hot blaze going.However on a few occasions , we’d get a roasting off Dad for rushing the process, and the slack would choke out the fire before it had chance to get cracking ,so to speak . You know where I’m going with this ? The act of burning clothing on an open fire is not as straight forward as one might imagine, a few things have to be considered. Victorian open grates in terraced houses were typically small,
    chimney size in the late Victorian era had been greatly reduced, and were not kept swept as often as they should have been .The build up of ash/clinker under the grate is also a factor. I would suggest therefore that burning a great wad of clothing would be very foolish ,where time was of the essence.Not only could even a healthy fire be choked out, but also the room could be filled with smoke. For this reason I believe this way of destroying evidence would not have been an option.

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  • caz
    replied
    Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post
    Caz he asked for directions to MGE not MGW. If the street had existed I'm sure the conductors would have been able to help him more than they did.
    Yes, I know that. I thought I had made that crystal clear. MGE did not exist, so MGW would naturally be the next best option for anyone advising Wallace when he asked for MGE. Even if someone absolutely knew there was no MGE, they would not immediately think Wallace had been tricked, but would suggest a mistake had been made and he could try the other Menlove Gardens.

    He knew it was somewhere off Menlove Avenue thanks to chess buddies and knew how to get there. He knew it would be one of the stops along there he needed.
    That's why it was a clever plan, regardless of who the caller was. It allowed Wallace to set off in the right direction, knowing that no matter how many people he might ask for help along the way, he could end up fannying about forever, searching in vain for an address which sounded totally genuine but wasn't.

    I'll get back to you with some thoughts I had recently on the fire, the mackintosh and the lights. That's if the thread is still here when I return. Be good.

    Love,

    Caz
    X

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  • WallaceWackedHer
    replied
    We may be in for some new information:



    This person knew one of the associates of the housebreaking gang I mentioned on my site.
    Last edited by WallaceWackedHer; 02-26-2020, 03:26 PM.

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  • WallaceWackedHer
    replied
    Originally posted by caz View Post

    In that case, WWH, Wallace and his defence team must have missed a trick. The defence should have looked more closely at his claimed journey on chess night. If it could have been established that he didn't go near that phone box he'd have been off the hook if the police and prosecution continued to assume the caller MUST also have been the killer. So it looks like the defence could find no evidential support for Wallace's claimed movements around the time of the phone call, or he was the one who didn't press the matter for whatever reason. Either way, I agree that it's a crying shame if he was telling the truth.

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    Yep I'm sure the defence did it for the same reason - they were afraid they would get an answer they didn't like.

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  • WallaceWackedHer
    replied
    Originally posted by caz View Post

    I agree, WWH - so why did you write that? You even emphasised an OBVIOUSLY there, in a sentence entirely made up of your own words.

    All I said was that a suspect's word is by definition unreliable without independent supporting evidence. In other words, if you are seeking to build a case against a burglar, using Wallace's claim that there was never any cash in the house when unoccupied, you need some other support for that claim, because IF [IF IF IF] Wallace may not have been the innocent flower you seem intent on painting him, and could have been lying to save his neck, his word alone is not good enough. If you can't get your head round this basic concept, then I do wonder if true crime is really your bag. Imagine this Q & A:

    Q: "Why would a burglar lure you away, Mr Wallace, knowing your wife would still be at home?"

    A: "Because if she wasn't at home, there would be no cash to steal. We always take everything with us when we are both out."

    Q: "And how would a burglar know this?"

    A: "Mmmm.... because we make no secret of it?"

    I hope you were not seriously arguing the above in Wallace's defence, because it's patent nonsense.



    While the first part is perfectly logical, the rest of it is not. If only Wallace knew his house couldn't be robbed when unoccupied, then only Wallace could have been Qualtrough, planning for his wife to be the victim of an apparent burglary:

    BERTIE BURGLAR aka QUALTROUGH: I know the Wallace house can't be robbed when it's empty, because Wallace advertises the fact. So I'll have to do it while his wife is there, after luring him away.

    Again, that would be patent nonsense.



    But what about when Wallace was fighting for his life and then sentenced to death? What about his ghost-written memoirs after he rightly won his appeal? What about in his final days, when saying "We won, didn't we?" He clearly never did cast his mind back, or grasp the importance of a milk boy seeing Julia alive at 6.45, just as he was about to leave for MGE, despite Close's statement, so was the man an idiot? Or is the truth that nobody but Wallace did see Julia alive as late as 6.45, because Close had delivered the milk earlier - too early to make that crucial difference between what was or wasn't physically possible? There is no getting round this. If Wallace had known for a fact that the milk delivery had virtually coincided with his own departure, he'd have made a right old song and dance about it when he first learned about Close's statement, if not before. And his memoirs could have consisted of a single sentence: "Close - Case closed."



    I get that, but with Qualtrough being anyone other than Wallace, and the address not existing being no accident or coincidence, we are still left with a Mr Q whose mind had to be devious enough to come up with the whole MGE plan in the first place, which was designed to keep Wallace outdoors and guessing for as long as possible, while his wife was alone with the Holy Grail that was the cash box. It's either/or. It's Wallace the wily, chess playing wife killer or Charlie the cryptic crossword compiling crook.



    I rest my case. This murder was not especially clever, but Wallace would not have needed to be a genius to pull it off. He just needed that element of reasonable doubt, which allowed for someone else to have done it, and he got that in the end - rightly so in my view. So he was clever enough to have done the job. But that's not saying much compared with Qualtrough the burglar. He could have knocked spots off Wallace in the brainbox department, succeeding in framing the simple insurance salesman without even trying, and getting clean away with the crime, even after Wallace won his appeal and tried to identify the real killer.

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    Yes quite correct they might not know they did that (empty the house of cash). Maybe someone who knew them well, but yes I would say there's a good possibility it would not be known to many at all. So they may expect to have been able to go there when the two were out together, albeit in a robbery scenario it's put forward by both the prosecution and the defence that it would make sense to strike on a Tuesday night due to the collection schedule.

    He didn't care about the milk boy evidently, as I did say. If Alan Close had never given his testimony then William would have been executed. Hence this does not make sense. He would have been hanged if not for that testimony so clearly it was of utmost importance but he didn't mention it at all. He didn't say Alan came at 6.40, or anything, he didn't mention ANYONE, so without Alan coming forward there is zero time alibi.

    I am quite sure William did not act alone for quite a few reasons, if he's guilty as I repeated a few times there's an OBVIOUS attempt to frame one SPECIFIC person (as well as many other things I could dive into). I don't think this is something anybody would do, not when you're getting it down to the point of "well only he knew where the box was and would be admitted by my wife and knew where I played chess". You know... Totally eliminating a number of potential suspects the police may have investigated... Because it wasn't "well this guy's kinda dodgy and my wife would let him in", it was more like "NOBODY except him or Marsden could have done this", that's essentially what we get from his second statement to police.

    He is just going ALL IN on Gordon Parry and everything seems to fit down to the chess board notice. Which is why I like Waterhouse's idea from The Insurance Man. Then Parry is questioned and has to BS about where he was on the telephone night. I don't think it's a coincidence or a mistake. If he's guilty I think he did this because he knew he could pin it on Gordon and he knew he could do it because he knew he made the telephone call.

    The name or address is not vital for creation of an alibi at all if it's all coming down to "impossible timing", it only matters when his wife is last seen alive, when he leaves his house, and when the body is discovered. If the entire alibi hinges upon timing then that is the only thing needed to get away with it. The client name I am entirely positive is supposed to be R J Qualtrough, and the address I remain unsure in regards to whether or not it is fake on purpose. If Gordon is the caller it is possible he messed up the details... I saw it in one place that when Beattie said "East" Wallace said "West" which would imply he's expecting "West" AKA advanced knowledge of what the message ought to be... Albeit most publications have it as him saying "Menlove Gardens, is that Menlove Avenue?" rather than the West/East thing.

    I think it's interesting that a lot of things coincide with the recent break-ins, including the Menlove Gardens address which had been burgled one month prior, and a few days within 19 Wolverton Street.

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