Ufology

[Phil H]

There have been sightings which appear to be possible "future tourism" - I'll try to dig out my references.

But they seem to be distinct from visiting aliens/

Phil H

[MajorParts]

What IF (note the big IF), a few thousand years into our own future, we have somehow managed to develop technology to allow time and/or inter-stellar travel and we are visiting ourselves from wherever we set up home after this place went proper tits up?

I like to believe that there are many intelligent civilisations out there, but I haven't come across any evidence whatsoever to say that it is a fact.

Unless you witness it yourself, you can never be sure of any of the stories truth and to a certain extent, can't be sure of your own experience.

[Scorpio]

Hessdalen

The citizens of Hessdalen, a remote valley in Norway, have been reporting UFO activity since the 1940's. Amateur UFO and science buffs attracted to the area have provided limited data of inevitably debatable quality but can categorising the strange lights phenomena into three rough categories: Rapid sparkles, balls of lightning drifting around for hours at a time, and several lights grouped together. The local population have also claimed solid objects have been encountered;Loaves, cigars, bullets, zeppelin and hats have been employed as similes by bucolic locals. Clearly, these reports have been influenced by UFO lore,digested consciously or unconsciously, and subjected to derision elsewhere. Nevertheless, the evidence has attracted the scientific community, and a observatory was constructed in 1988. With the aid of more sophisticated equipment, observers confirm that the phenomenon is real; radar returns record velocities of 8 kilometers per second; spectral analysis suggests a superheated mixture of oxygen, nitrogen, and silica, which constitute the local dust; but also present is the much rarer Scandium: a hard material used in the production of fighter planes. There is a wealth of data on Hessdalen out there for the interested; it is considered a UFO laboratory and will continue to produce data. But Hessdalen is interesting as a natural experiment for social science also; the qualitative differences in the observations of different stratas in society should provide a lesson for wary investigators.

[Scorpio]

It seems that Stealth aircraft were deposited in this country and probably flown prior to the first Gulf war; this was a time when their existence was officially denied.

[Phil H]

I think the whole thing was over-blown.

so questions of info and juristician make it difficult to investigate properly should the authorities make a big deal of it.

US bases on British soil remain RAF establishments and have an RAF commander. The agreements under which the US uses sites in the UK are quite clear.

On the other hand, I think many UFO sightings of fast moving craft were actually the US testing new sorts of technology against British air defences without notice, to the advantage of both. Hence why the UK government could repeatedly assert that there was no threat from whatever was happening.

Phil H

[Scorpio]

The Theories 1

It has been suggested that the Rendlesham case was an example of covert testing program, or psy-ops. Perhaps it is not as far fetched as it sounds; the base housed cold war facilities,making it a high risk; it is based on British soil, not American, so questions of info and juristician make it difficult to investigate properly should the authorities make a big deal of it. To test security measures and study reactions may have been the motivation.
But how could they fake such things?,you may ask.
I suggest that sightings from the original reports may not have been as impressive as you might think.

[Scorpio]

The Witnesses 2

One of the first and best UFO witnesses was Kenneth Arnold.Arnolds report is interesting as an independent witness and as a socialogical phenomenon; it would unleash a flood of similar reports that is regarded by some as the start of the UFO craze. On June 24th 1947, Idaho businessman Arnold reported nine metalic objects moving rapidly close to the horizon whilst flying his private plane across Washington state.Contrary to popular belief, Arnold did not see flying saucers but used the image as an analogy:like saucers skipping across a pond. Arnold was a good witness; he was an experienced pilot, was rational, and had a valid reason to be in the area. Perhaps as important as these points is the fact that UFO mythology had not yet developed; such folklore can effect the interpretation of aerial phenomena and color recall of the event. Besides the odd configuration of the craft high speeds, there is nothing particularly outlandish in Arnolds report; he would infact adjust his original velocity estimates because he thought they sounded ridiculous. This mild anxiety influencing recall, an example of cognitive dissonance, speeks well of Arnold: cognitive dissonance is pychological reality.

[Beowulf]

Although I'm not specifically a believer in crop circles being made by aliens I did see one, photographed it and my film disappeared from the store I put it into. Men in black?

My husband and I went to a recommended fishing hole by our plumber (stop laughing).

It was way deep through a woods up by Flagstaff Arizona. We went on this dirt road into a woods that led us at last to an open marshy field. Grasses three feet high. Through a little path that opened to the field between two trees we stepped out into the marsh to look for Marshall Lake, and realized straight in front of us was a crop circle. Grasses bent around in a spiral, of no classic design like the crop circles in the photographs you see.

We kind of thought the Northern Arizona college students did it as a prank, but...?

[Scorpio]

Actually, even among believers there is almost no one who thinks crop circles are literally made by landed UFOs. Also, I'd just like to reiterate the points I've already made about the cases that couldn't possibly have been man-made hoaxes, at least with the time constraints in which they'd have to have been made. (Though as I also said, it's not in question that many of the circles are indeed hoaxed, just not all of them.)

Also, whenever someone says "I don't think aliens would do this...", etc., you really can't put yourself into an alien mind and predict what they would or wouldn't do, because they are just that- ALIEN.

(And again, I tend to doubt that aliens/UFOs are responsible for the real crop circles at all, that some other paranormal phenomenon is at work. We have dual subjects getting mixed together here.)

Well said Kensei.
If we can't accurately predict the motivations of one grubby human serial killer, then what chance the mind of a sentient alien. Sometimes these crop circles remind me of primitive artificial intelligence; the complex symmetry and repetitive nture is like a precocious child.

[kensei]

of course they are. I think the aliens would be smart enough to know not to land in crops/fields and leave such an obvious trace.

Actually, even among believers there is almost no one who thinks crop circles are literally made by landed UFOs. Also, I'd just like to reiterate the points I've already made about the cases that couldn't possibly have been man-made hoaxes, at least with the time constraints in which they'd have to have been made. (Though as I also said, it's not in question that many of the circles are indeed hoaxed, just not all of them.)

Also, whenever someone says "I don't think aliens would do this...", etc., you really can't put yourself into an alien mind and predict what they would or wouldn't do, because they are just that- ALIEN.

(And again, I tend to doubt that aliens/UFOs are responsible for the real crop circles at all, that some other paranormal phenomenon is at work. We have dual subjects getting mixed together here.)

[Abby Normal]

Here's the dodgy mortician, Glen Dennis, whose story is easily shown to be untrue and exploitative.

http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/Dennis.htm

Crop Circles are by hoaxers.

of course they are. I think the aliens would be smart enough to know not to land in crops/fields and leave such an obvious trace.

[Jonathan H]

Here's the dodgy mortician, Glen Dennis, whose story is easily shown to be untrue and exploitative.

http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/Dennis.htm

Crop Circles are by hoaxers.

[kensei]

I don't have the details in front of me but I have heard that samples of the crop taken from circles have been scientifically analyzed and found to be slightly irradiated.

[Phil H]

There was a lot of interest in England at one time (70s/early 80s as I recall) in LEY LINES - supposedly ancient straight lines linking menhirs, church towers (often on very ancient sites) and other landmarks.

Some supposed Ley Lines reflected the magnetic currents of the earth, allowing power to be "stored" in such places as Avebury and Stonehenge. there were other rationales too.

But scientists subjected the claims and the alleged lines to mathematical tests. in fact the lines were perceptional only - they "missed" key points by yards and most of them represented chance not construction (the statistical probabilities of three or more objects being connectable by a straight line). This pretty well demolished the Ley Line theories.

Do you know whether Crop Circles have ever been subjected to similar testing or scientific analysis?

Phil H

[kensei]

We need to demand just as much proof for the claim "I hoaxed a UFO" as we do for the claim "I saw a UFO."

Why?

Frankly, a statement like that REEKS of "conspiracy theory". I assume you are suggesting that Governments are covering things up by pretending its all hoaxes of "weather balloons"?

Where do you stand on crop circles btw?

Phil H

Actually no, government coverups were nowhere on my mind when I wrote the above quote. I was merely saying that I think anyone investigating a phenomenon should apply the same level of scrutiny to anyone who claims anything. Someone who says they saw a UFO might be lying. Someone who says they hoaxed a UFO might also be lying. Simple as that. Skeptics are always insisting that anecdotal evidence is not really evidence at all. Personally I disagree as it is used in court cases all the time as testimony, and while it is certainly not PROOF it is indeed one form of EVIDENCE. But for the purposes of this thread, if a UFO skeptic says anecdotal evidence has no value then why should that cease to be so if said anecdote describes how a hoax was pulled off?

Where do I stand on crop circles- It's fascinating and I don't have a firm stance on what they are. Certainly many of them are hoaxed, that's not in question. But in the fake ones made with boards and chains, the stalks are broken. There is another category of designs in which the stalks are not only not broken and in fact continuing to grow sideways, but also woven together in a spiral pattern. When analyzed, they show signs of having been irradiated. People sometimes report feeling ill or having electronic equipment malfunction when inside the patterns. A very elaborate pattern that appeared in a field next to Stonehenge appeared so quickly (and in broad daylight) that a pilot flying overhead passed by and the pattern wasn't there, but when he came back the same way in a half hour or so it was there. There were tourists at Stonehenge as usual, yet no one had seen anyone in the field. People have reported seeing small balls of light floating over fields as patterns were forming. All food for thought.

You might be surprised that I tend to doubt UFOs are the cause of crop circles (that is, the ones that are not man-made). There are other theories, just as paranormal and not likely to find favor here, but I haven't decided which if any I believe. It's a mystery. I traveled through classic crop circle country a couple of times while on vacation in England. A tour guide drove me from Glastonbury to Stonehenge and Avebury, but it was in September and the harvest was over. She did point to one field and say "That might be the remains of one there." Interesting area, and despite its rural pastoral setting it is one with unmistakable military presence. The army does maneuvers out there, and I had never seen "Tank Crossing" signs before. Not connecting that to the circles at all, just an observation.

P.S.- Bizarre coincidence, but as I write this I am listening to Stanton Friedman being interviewed on a radio program.