Manson Ranch--New Investigation

[jmenges]

The case in my family is one of a domestic dispute turn multiple murder that occurred in the early 1930's in which a jilted husband attempted to wipe out our entire family, which at that time included my grandmother, great aunts and uncles, and great-grandparents. Both my great-grandparents were killed and a great-aunt was severely stabbed but survived. He was caught, convicted, and paroled from prison in the early 1980's. The killer is deceased now.

There was an area at UT Austin that was reserved for student groups, Christians, Krishnas etc who could pass out literature. Koresh and/or the Branch Davidians were fixtures for a time at this "free-speech" mall and they were the run-of-the-mill Christian witnesses who would pass out pamphlets and talk Christ to the passing students. They were 7th Day Adventists and advertised themselves as such. They would invite students to join them for free Sunday meals and worship at Mount Carmel, and were generally friendly, non-pushy, and definitely non-cultlike. Koresh (who called himself Vernon) and the half-dozen of other church members would set up a table and pass out religious pamphlets. They were totally non-threatening.

Edit-

Did you suspect he could do the things he did?

Well, no, I didn't suspect he was doing the things he did. But to me, that means the only thing illegal he was caught doing, which was fashioning illegal guns for sale. Although this came as no surprise to me since it was in rural Waco, Texas and the church had to raise money for themselves somehow (after the bank accounts of their members were drained). What I believe you might mean is molesting children and setting them all on fire, which I think are to this day both debatable points.

Let me say this, I could not believe what I was seeing when the standoff and raid went down. That entire month or so was unreal, surreal, and unbelievable.

JM

[Celesta]

JM,

I'm very sorry about your family members. Were the ones who did this caught? It seems it would be very hard on the family if the killer was not caught.

You were certainly too close to serial killers just being in the same city much less the same neighborhood.

What were your impressions of Koresh/Howell, and his troupe. Did you suspect he could do the things he did? My sister went to school w/ Mark Chapman, who killed John Lennon, and she said she had no idea that he could do something like that, even though he was a little strange. Actually both he and his dad were.

[jmenges]

No, I haven't seen any video related to this recent story (Barker ranch) although I've seen plenty of video of the place made over the last few years. As the video probably shows, the ranch house still stands. The bathroom cabinet under the sink where Manson was hiding is still there, although the door has been removed. It's a pretty difficult place to get to, and how they managed it in school bus is beyond me. One of the girls were asked about this and claimed they floated in their bus to Barker ranch. I believe that statement was made in Ed Sander's book on the case.

The Manson case was the third murder case I seriously studied as a little boy, the first being the murders of my family members, and the second the Clutter murders.

The closest I ever came to a serial killer (that I know of) was hanging out in Hillcrest and La Jolla, San Diego California, when Andrew Cunanan was walking the streets of my and my mother's neighborhoods, respectively. I also believe I met David Koresh, known then as Vernon Howell ( I certainly had run-ins with the Branch Davidians) while I was routinely on the campus of the University of Texas, Austin circa 1989-91.

JM

[Celesta]

This link, if it works, will allow you to click on the Goler Wash and Barker Ranch and go right to the Google maps then you can access the satellite photo and zoom in.

Goler Wash and Barker Ranch are down under "We're Not Hippies," in blue lettering.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/m...09-954,00.html

[Celesta]

This article refers to Barker ranch, not the Spahn Movie ranch. Tex Watson's broken down truck still sits at the site of Barker ranch, btw.

JM

Did you see the news video of the ranch? It still had things sitting around in there. It was like they just picked up and left yesterday. And what a creepy yet striking-looking place.

[Celesta]

Hi Guys,


This is getting scarier and scarier! All I started out to do was introduce a little bit of news about that nasty group. BTW, the coverage has expanded to several articles, now.

Stan, Just from your description of the way they approached you arouses my suspicions of them. That description is about what I would expect. Greasy and sleazy. I bet you had that skin-crawling feeling. Your intuition was working for you that day. Sheesh, this gives me a creepy feeling.

Stephen, I don't know for certain it was him. But...I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. If you look at the pictures of him other than the one that comes up on Wiki, he looked more like that, even though those pictures are of an older Watts. The fuller face is what I recall. His buddy was strange. He was always crying and complaining about his father or stepfather, who I think had died. He hated the man, who had apparently beat him. He kept doing things, trying to get my sympathy.

How odd that there are three people right here who may have met horrible serial killers. I wonder if that's why we gravitated to this site?

[sdreid]

Coral Watts is on A&E right now - Cold Case Files

[Stephen Thomas]

Bloody hell, Celesta,

I'd never heard of this Coral Watts before. America's worst serial killer? A profiler's nightmare? And you came face to face with him?

Amazing.

[sdreid]

Good news that Watts is dead.

The guys were sort of greasy/sleazy looking and sat near me to strike up a conversation. Right off they started talking about perverted sexual practices like I was their best buddy or something. If it wasn't for that stuff, I most likely would have forgotten all about them. They asked me to give them a ride downtown which I briefly considered but thinking of how weird they were I gave them an excuse that I had to go meet someone right away. I don't know how they got there. It would have been around 1980, give or take a couple of years.

[Celesta]

Watts was almost released on parole about a year ago.

Before he was caught, he was called the Sunday Morning Slasher, I believe.

Yeah, the Sunday Morning Slasher. Only this was Sunday night, so I guess he was running late, hunh? He's dead, now. Prostate cancer. I may be mistaken, but someone tried to get me, and he had a fondness for women in apartments.

Now, tell us more about those two guys you ran into.

[sdreid]

Watts was almost released on parole about a year ago.

Before he was caught, he was called the Sunday Morning Slasher, I believe.

[Celesta]

Stephen,

You won't believe what I came across. I did a Googly on Coral Watts, and Wiki popped up with his picture, and I nearly fell out of my desk chair. I can't say 100% if this was the guy, who visited my neighbor, at least twice, but, when it first popped up, I was stunned breathless for a few seconds. I did some more research and found more pictures of him that look more like the guy I remember. Fuller and rounder in the face and darker in skin tone. It has been so long though. I remember all of the controversy going on when he was caught, but I had so much distraction that, other than glance at his picture on the tube and wonder a bit, I didn't concentrate on him intensely. What I just read about him fits. The hair on my neck stood up, when I read that his lawyer, a woman, took to wearing a crucifix, when she was around him. She said there was evil in him. Evil is certainly what I sensed on that Sunday night.

What made me suspect the two men next door was some odd behavior, esp. the night of the attempted break-in. I took my trash out, locked my door behind me, and the neighbor was out in his patio area. He acted as though I had caught him at something, and he kept looking around shifty-eyed. I remembered wondering where the visitor was. I have always had the picture of his "cousin" as being underneath my window, in spite of what my co-worker told me about the decapitator, who was active just prior to this event.

Whew! That's alot to explain! Anyway, seeing Watt's picture and the articles about him brought it all back. Whether it was him or not. My gut feeling says it was, and I would really like to know what happened to my neighbor, because he was not innocent. As for Watts, I met him twice, in the company of my neighbor, and he barely spoke and didn't smile. He mostly stared at me.

I'm glad you didn't get on the bus!


Stan, Thank you for putting me onto this.

[Stephen Thomas]

Blimey Celesta,

And I thought I had a story to tell.

Sleepy Hollow or what?

[Celesta]

Thanks, Stan.

I am off to check on it right now! A bit leery of what I'll find, if ya know what I mean.


I found a reference to it. The time period is about right. I graduated in the early Spring then went to Houston in the Fall or late summer of 1980. I also found a reference to another character named Coral Eugene Watts, whose earliest known killings were 1981 in Houston. He fits some things I observed about a visitor who used to stay at my neighbor's apt. I was highly suspicious of both my neighbor and his "cousin" when the event occurred, but a coworker put the other killer into my head. I have to find out if this Watts character fits other criteria.

[sdreid]

Yes, that does it!