kennedy assassination

[sdreid]

The only second gunman was Ruby.

Kennedy was just as dead with one shooter so why double the risk of being caught with two gunmen? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

There were all kinds of rumors connected with this case. On the afternoon it happened, the first report I heard said that Kennedy and Johnson were in a meeting room and someone burst in and shot both of them although LBJ was only wounded.

[dougie]

Hi joel,
Is there a link to that info/argument....Id be interested to see/read it.
regards

[joelhall]

i know one fact that disputes the lone gunman theory...

that the warren commission published their evidence, where the ballistics showed there to be at least 4 bullets, and they used this evidence to claim there were only 3.

this is used as a case study in illustrated guide to forensics, dr. zakaria erzinclioglu.

[dougie]

Yes cappucinna, and it makes one wonder why there ever was any support for the "conspiracy" view, in my opinion.....oh and dont forget Oswalds books inventory list was also found screwed up behind some boxes a short distance away.........none of the orders on that list had been fulfilled,maybe oswald didnt have time?
regards

[cappuccina]

uhhhh....guys...Oswald's fingerprints were found on...

...the murder weapon, on the homemade paper bag, and in more than one place in the small "sniper's nest" area of the Schoolbook Depository where the shots were fired from...

[YankeeSergeant]

Question

Dougie: I guess the question would be if Federal law trumps state law. I make no comment on "Mortal Error" Other than I have read it. I don't buy the premise because you don't get to be on the presidential detail by being a f%*k up. I don't find the constitution to be a mere technical point. The reason conspiracy theories abouind about Kennedy's mruder is that people don't buy what the government said. I would submit that while I believe Oswald would have been found guilty, I doubt that he was alone and I believe what he told the reporters in Dallas the night Kennedy weas killed that he was a patsy.
However, let me qualify that by stating that to come to any sort of reasonable conclusion, I have to personally do much more research. HAve a great week,

[dougie]

Dougie:
The book is titled "Mortal Error" and I forget who wrote it,though I do have it.
ONe point though. Though I don't agree with you about everything on the assassination, Let's assume you are 100% right. One glaring fact remains. No matter how you slice it, Lee Harvey Oswald was not brought to trial. Therefore Lee HArvey Oswald allegedly murdered John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Also, if everything was above board, why did the secret service feel it had to usurp the DAllas coroners in violation of Texas state law? Murder, including assassination at the time was not a federal crime but was considered capital murder,a state prosecuted offence. These are some of the questions that should haver been answered in 1963 and 64. Neil

Hi Yankee,
Well, of course Oswald was never brought to trial,so therefore technically he was innocent......innocent until proved guilty.But that wasnt the states fault,obviously you cant put a dead man in the witness box.
But the evidence is/was so overwhelming that the only bullets fired at Kennedy came from the depository-from oswalds rifle and from NOWHERE else, and from NO other weapon,that is indisputable.......and that the rifle was bought by oswald, signed for by oswald, sent to oswalds p.o box (a rifle,by the way that oswald denied owning or ever having owned,when its plain he did) also the physical evidence attached to that rifle ..i.e thumbprint, fibres.The fingerprints on the box used as rifle rest etc.....The proof that oswald killed tippet using a pistol bought by him, signed for by him sent to his p.o box and in his possession when arrested.His behaviour both before ,during and after the assassination show without doubt he WAS the perpretrator. Its impossible for an innocent man to accumulate such a voluminious amount of "circumstancial evidence".So the "innocent until proven guilty in a court" is only a technical point.
Yes I remember "mortal error" ,I read it too, and anybody who believed THAT tale would probabley also believe reports of a camel speaking russian.
The "murder was not a federal crime" issue.Its a clouded issue. There are and have been misconceptions..even the warren commission said in 1963 that "it wasnt a federal crime to murder the president" J.Edgar hoover said almost the same.For almost all practical intents and purposes its true.....but the statement technically isnt.Under sect 111 of title 19 of the us code, murder was a federal crime in 1963, there was no subsection obviously that said "if its an american president that is murdered,then its not a federal crime"...the act provided that for there to be federal jurisdiction the murder would need to take place in a place owned, possessed or controlled by the u.s govt i.e the white house, pentagon but also a national park a u.s highway etc........However in 1963, IF it could be shown that a conspiracy was suspected or had occurred in the assassination of Kennedy (and remember it was considered as a possibility very early on, before the facts were realised) there was no limitation over federal jurisdiction, as I understand it.
In 1963...again...it was a federal crime to murder anywhere a federal judge, us attorneys us marshals and any "officer or employee of the united states" I have had it explained to me in detail by someone who understands and can interprete judicial language and laws far better than i can hope to.the conclusion was ,that although it can be argued ,no law was broken.
kind regards

[YankeeSergeant]

Book Title

Dougie:
The book is titled "Mortal Error" and I forget who wrote it,though I do have it.
ONe point though. Though I don't agree with you about everything on the assassination, Let's assume you are 100% right. One glaring fact remains. No matter how you slice it, Lee Harvey Oswald was not brought to trial. Therefore Lee HArvey Oswald allegedly murdered John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Also, if everything was above board, why did the secret service feel it had to usurp the DAllas coroners in violation of Texas state law? Murder, including assassination at the time was not a federal crime but was considered capital murder,a state prosecuted offence. These are some of the questions that should haver been answered in 1963 and 64. Neil

[dougie]

And of course the fact that the only bullets, bullet fragments, or casings found anywhere on Dealey Plaza were those proved to have been fired from oswalds rifle to the exclusion of any other weapon.That fact alone would seem to exclude any grassy knoll assassin, storm drain marksman or a colonel blimp secret serviceman.The image of a secret service agent,standing up in a follow up limousine ,falling backwards and accidentally blowing the presidents head off wouldnt seem out of place in an eddie murphy film
regards

[dougie]

Bob,
I dont believe there is any evidence to suggest an accidental shot from a secret service operative in the follow up car. i know there was a book written ,(the title escapes me) suggesting that,but based on the flimsiest kind of logic and i dont believe many ,if any, of the conspiracy theorists paid that theory any serious attention.....apart from the guy that wrote the book of course.

[Bob Hinton]

Problems

One of the biggest problems you have with untrained people is to get them to take being shot at seriously. If you've been brought up with the Hollywood version, bullets exploding on impact a la Simpsons, terrific machine gun noise etc, its quite difficult to get them to view Green Snow and a buzzing sound with any sense of alarm.

Mind you it can be very hypnotic. I recall a long time ago we were in a patrol boat out the Far East. We could see one of our planes right on the horizon. Suddenly he went vertical and we all stood on the upper deck wondering what the hell was going on. Then we could hear a faint screeching sound and one of the blokes yelled out 'Fu****ng Hell look at that!' We all looked at where he was pointing and could see the unmistakable sight of a 500lb bomb coming right for us.

The funny thing was instead of jumping overboard and doing headless chicken impersonations we all just stood there looking at it. We didn't take evasive action or anything. It just got bigger and bigger. Of course when it finally impacted it was about 200 yards behind us and took out a large chunk of jungly stuff together with some unpleasant people who were hiding there.

I will never forget the incredible skill of that Buccaneer pilot to lob a bomb from about ten miles away and score a direct hit.

[Jon Guy]

Enjoyed the post, Bob. Interesting stuff,especially the green snow !!

[Bob Hinton]

Kennedy

The main thing against there being some sort of conspiracy about Kennedy’s death is that if it was a ‘professional’ murder, i.e. CIA, Mafia, KGB, Dallas Wilderness girls etc, they made a real bad job of it as we are still talking about it today.

Governments are usually served by people who can arrange deaths so that no one knows there has been a murder. For example in the early sixties we had a defector from Section V KGB, who dealt with assassinations, come across and freely admit to half a dozen murders that had previously been written off as natural causes.

I believe that if you asked a professional sniper where he would position himself to make the shot to kill Kennedy he wouldn’t pick the book depository and certainly not the grassy knoll. The reason is you have a passing shot; the target is passing across your field of fire. If you are a fraction out it will miss the target completely.

The best kind of shot in these circumstances is one where the target is coming towards you. Your crosshairs are practically stationary and if you have an error up or down, side to side, you will still make the shot. The best place would be the flyover going across the motorcade in front of the convoy. Not only could you make your shot but also escape would be easier. First rule of sniping – never get in somewhere you can’t get out of just as fast!

By the way, as for people saying they knew where the shot came from – forget it. It’s one thing to try and pin down a shooters location on the battlefield where there are not many tall buildings, it’s quite another to do the same in a plaza surrounded by tall buildings that would make the sound of the shot bounce around all over the place.

Being shot at is quite interesting. I believe it was Winston Churchill who said ‘Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.’ There are quite a few myths about it though. For a start you don’t hear the bullet that hits you as the bullet travels faster than sound, it arrives before the sound does. For a good movie example of this see ‘Valdez is Coming’. Bullets going past you make a fast buzzing sound, if they hit something they make a ‘thwocking’ sound, they don’t suddenly turn into tracer bullets a la Hollywood. People who are hit don’t get thrown backwards in dramatic fashion, they just sink slowly to the ground. The actual gunshot sound doesn’t last very long. I once came under fire from several light machine-guns about 150 yards away and it sounded like someone crackling cellophane. Sometimes the first indication you have that you are being fired at is ‘Green Snow’. You will be walking along quite happily and suddenly its snowing green. The nozzers stay there looking at this phenomena, the old hands dive for cover as they know it’s chewed up foliage coming down from machine gun bursts that have been fired too high.

Personally I think two bullets hit Kennedy that day. One by bad luck than judgement was fired by Oswald, his second shot, and the other accidentally fired by a Secret Service man in the following car. The conspiracy was covering up the accidental shooting of the President by a man there to protect him.

[dougie]

Jason,
Exactly!.....The dorothy kilgannen(sic) "mysterious death" usually comes up regularly in this issue....again it s of no real importance.
regards

[jason_c]

I'd like to say a few things regards to the "mysterious deaths" surrounding JFK. Much of this is takens from macadms JFK site.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/deaths.htm.

1. Recruiting a "clean-up" squad to silence witnesses is counter productive. Each person recruited becomes a potential whistle blower.
2. The death list comes from 1000's of people - many having little or no link to JFK. Some simply members of the Mafia, CIA, anti-Castro Cubans etc.
3. Many star conspiracy witnesses lived long lives - Beverly Oliver, Malcolm Summers, and Ed Hoffman. Jean Hill passed away on November 7, 2000.
4. The mysterious deaths occurred as late as 1984. No quick kills for these folk.
5. The list is laced with people who have a larger than average chance of a violent death: law officers, people on the edges of the underworld (strippers), people very much part of the underworld (Mafia figures), and people with a clear history of alcohol or drug abuse, or of mental illness.
6. Witnesses who agreed with the Warren Commission are included in the mysterious deaths list.