kennedy assassination

[Phryne Fisher]

Hello all

I've been hanging around here for a few weeks, and find the whole board fascinating, and rather daunting; you all seem to know so much about JtR and the other topics on here, and I've nothing but a mild interest and scant knowledge.

For some reason this JFK assassination topic has really got me hooked. I couldn't tell you where I was or what I was doing when I heard (if I even did) about JFK's assassination, and can't say I've thought much about it since (I was 8 then) but have spent most of me precious weekend reading up about it after coming across this thread.

I'm not a great believer in CTs, but there are two indisputable facts about the Kennedy assassination that make me think this one could, possibly, be a goer:

1) Jack Ruby shot L H Oswald
2) The FBI took JFK's body away from the Dallas Police

In amongst the welter of information/misinformation out there, these two things really stood out to me as completely inexplicable if there was no conspiracy.

The other thing I noticed, after reading Gov. Connally's evidence to the Warren Commision here: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jf...Vol4_0070a.htm
and watching the Zapruder Film here: http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/index1.htm far too many times

is that Connally appears, in that footage, to be hit a split second after JFK's hit by the fatal headshot, not by the so-called 'magic bullet'. Connally's still up and looking about after JFK clutches his throat (the moment that Connally, and others, have attributed to the non-fatal shot that passes through both of them); but immediately after Kennedy's head explodes a second later, Connally crumples forward.

I know this would stuff up the grassy knoll (or anywhere in front) theory, and doesn't help me at all as a born-again conspiracist , but if anyone can bear to look at that footage again, I'd love to hear your opinions on this.

[Ron Beckett]

Oswald was a patsy

Dear hollydolly(and others), If you want to know personally why LBJ did it,read the recent(last few years) book called Blood, Money and Power by Barr Mclellan. He was an attorney who worked for Ed Clark who was Johnson's attorney/fixer. They had tried to influence a federal investigator called Henry Marshall but he was killed and Bobby Kennedy was on the trail
The only way out was for Johnson to become President. They controlled Dallas/Texas along with Big Oil. They could do anything there. Remember how Jack Ruby said in his televised interview that he would talk if Earl Warren would take him to Washington. He also said the conspiracy was all the way to the top. He was telling the truth. Read also "Oswald Talked", a book that shows that Jack Ruby and Oswald were involved in gun running and that the FBI was surveilling them. Jim Garrison's book shows how the cover-up was done from the Intelligence agencies and the bit that hurts was that Johnson sent Ed Clark to Australia as Ambassador to get him out of the way. Also in Garrisons book is the info that another bullet was pulled out of JFK in the autopsy and concealed for years. Dulles ran the Warren commission, and the House Investigation into assassinations (1976) was kept away from the evidence - Garrison explains how. The evidence is overwhelming.

[Mayerling]

My dad worked at Security Service at KellyAFB,in military intelligence.He was at IBM at computer school when it happend.I recall him saying that one gentleman said Johnson did it.
I guess that was the belief of many locals at the time, that LBJ had some hand in it.Why I have no idea,but they felt he was behind it.

Hi HollyDolly,

It is not unusual in American Presidential assassinations to look at the successors as potential key figures in the predecessor's assassination.
Andrew Johnson was "implicated" by John Wilkes Booth purposely on April 14, 1865, when Booth (guessing that the weak and drunken George Atzerodt would not carry through the killing of Johnson) left his calling card with a message about a meeting in Johnson's hotel mail box. Later, during his impeachment trial, one of the Congressman on the prosecution team tried to make this the basis of a claim hat Booth worked with Johnson, but the evidence did not exist.

Chester Arthur had a similar hard time to overcome, because that nut Charles Guiteau identified himself with the Stalwart wing of the Republican Party of 1880-81 that was led by Senator Roscoe Conkling of New York, and that Arthur was a member of (in fact, when arrested, Guiteau shouted, "I am a Stalwart of the Stalwarts, and Arthur is now President!"). Arthur's sterling performance as a reform minded President freed him of any suspicions that he had a hand in the death of Garfield.

Theodore Roosevelt was not immediately suspected of being involved with Czolgosz's killing of McKinley. The worst comment was that of Senator MarK Hanna of Ohio who said, "Now that damned cowboy is President!" But Hanna was McKinley's friend and booster, and he was upset (later he and Roosevelt worked better together than he thought). Oddly enough, Alice Roosevelt (the President's oldest daughter) later admitted that she had wished McKinley would die so that her Dad could get a chance.

But subsequently one person did suspect T.R. John Schrank, a bartender from New York City, would tell of dreams he had where President McKinley would rise from his coffin and accuse a Monk (with Roosevelt's face) of being his murderer. These dreams egged on Schrank to kill Roosevelt as a usurper and would - be dictator. In 1912 T.R. ran for President against the incumbent Republican Taft and the Democrat Wilson (and the Socialist Debs) as the Progressive "Bull Moose" Candidate. Although T.R. had been only elected President once, he had two administrations (1901-1905; 1905 - 1909), and was now seeking a third term. Schrank felt this was a threat to our democracy, and he shot Roosevelt in October 1912 in Milwaukee. The bullet was deflected by a speech and eyeglass case, and T.R. was able to give a brief speech before he was rushed to the hospital. He survived, and Schrank was sent to an insane asylum where he died in 1943 (he was saddened when FDR won a third term in 1940). The two term amendment (which I keep referring to as the "Schrank" amendment) came out in 1951.

So Lyndon Johnson was not the first Vice President who succeeded accused of involvement. However sometimes a bad reputaion hurts one. Chester Arthur had been Roscoe Conkling's right hand man in his political machine, and therefore he was fully involved in the corruption of that group. It did not take much of a stretch to link Arthur with Guiteau after the latter's insistance of being a Stalwart. With Johnson, his reputation for corruption went back to that Senatorial Victory he had in the late 1940s over a popular opponent by questionable tallies of votes in a close election. Furthermore, there were some rumors (since insisted upon by Billy Sol Estes) of Johnson's involvement with Estes' swindles and the mysterious killing of a government employee who was investigating the swindles. So yeah, I can see Johnson's enemies believing his involvement in killing Kennedy in his own state of Texas.

By the way, before I leave this area, as far back as 1835 suspicions regarding political backers of assassins were always pushed by the targets.
When a nut named Richard Lawrence tried to shoot Andrew Jackson in 1835,
Jackson found out that Lawrence (a house painter) had done work for Senator George Poindexter of Mississippi. Poindexter had once been a Jackson supporter, but had become disenchanted and was in opposition now.
He denied that he plotted the assassination with Lawrence, but the smear stuck and his political career collapsed. Similarly, former Vice President (now Senator) John C. Calhoun was also targetted, but got up on the Senate floor and declared he never knew Lawrence and had nothing to do with the attack.
Calhoun's carreer, unlike Poindexter's did not suffer in the long run.

Best wishes,

Jeff

[dougie]

Holly dolly,
I think through the years almost everyone has been accused of some degree of involvement in the assassination....something in the region of 1,200 "known " figures and countless more lesser known .Thats one of the main problems with conspiracy theorists....they never know when to stop!
regards

[HollyDolly]

Kennedy Assassination

My dad worked at Security Service at KellyAFB,in military intelligence.He was at IBM at computer school when it happend.I recall him saying that one gentleman said Johnson did it.
I guess that was the belief of many locals at the time, that LBJ had some hand in it.Why I have no idea,but they felt he was behind it.

[dougie]

A few photos of jack ruby some might not have seen

[dougie]

DRPL
Hi, had a quick look, was quite interesting....however its known how many bullets were fired...its known from which rifle they came from...its known the location from which the bullets were fired....its known whos rifle it was.....and last but not least its known who fired it.So really however much nitpicking goes on.....the verdict cant sensibley be disputed.Almost every murder case has unexplained odds and ends.Usually small, insignificant things that others pick up on to dispute the most obviously correct verdicts.People are still arguing over the A6 murder for the very same reasons,even though its been proved beyond,far beyond even any shred of reasonable doubt who the culprit was....its fun i guess.
regards

[DrPL]

If I may be so bold, there is an excellent discussion of bullet fragments and how their quantity and weight as altered over the years at:

http://www.dealeyplazauk.org/

- then go into resources, then Articles, and then "The Wounding of John Connally" towards the bottom of the page.

Best wishes

Paul

[dougie]

hey guys,

now i should point out this is the only credible evidence ive seen that some of the conclusions made by the warren commision are unsafe.

this does not prove a conspiracy, who did the shooting, nor prove oswalds innocence. it merely shows that the conclusion of 2 bullets only is called into question, also that there was only one shooter (whomever that may be).

this is taken from the illustated guide to forensics - true crime scene investigtions by dr. z. erzinclioglu, sevenoaks, 2004.

dr. zakaria erzinclioglu, a forensics scientist, has been sr. research associate at cambridge university, director of the forensic science research centre at durham university, and an affiliated researcher at cambridge university, as well as being involved in over 500 murder cases in britain and the us.

this if from page 108, involving the evidence on the bullet fragments taken from the car.

the results, from the warren commision, which were reviewed independantly by dr. erzinclioglu, are as follows...

'the results of the study of the fragments were held by the warren commission to show that only two bullets struck the occupants of the car. this is puzzling, since it is clear that the trace element evidence shows that more than two bullets were fired.

'the results for traces of silver, in parts per million, were as follows (the ranges of the results are given in brackets):

1. from connallys stretcher 8.8 +/- 0.5 (8.3-9.3)
2. from connallys wrist 9.8 +/-0.5 (9.3-10.3)
3. large fragment from car 8.1 +/-0.6 (7.5-8.7)
4. from kennedys brain 7.9+/-0.3 (7.6-8.2)
5. small fragments from car 8.2 +/-0.4 (7.8-8.6)

'the range of silver in 1 & 2 just meet, which is inconclusive, since they could represent either one or two bullets.
the ranges for the remaining three specimens overlap considerably and suggest that the fragments came from one bullet.

'the results of the antimony analysis showed the following results:

1. from connallys stretcher 833 +/-9 (824-842)
2. from connallys wrist 797 +/-7 (790-804)
3. large fragment from car 602 +/-4 (598-606)
4. from kennedys brain 621+/-4 (617-625)
5. small fragments from car 642+/-6 (636-648)

'none of the ranges of trace antimony in the bullets or fragments overlap, yet these results were used to demonstrate that only two bullets were fired, which is an impossible conclusion. of particular interest is the fact that the two connally bullets show very different ranges. what all this means is another matter. it certainly does not prove conspiracy. but this is not the point. the point is that, in spite of the fact that some of the evidence suggests that the accepted version of events is incorrect, that very evidence was used to "demonstrate" the opposite. such things do happen in forensic science.'

this is the only real evidence i have seen to seriously question the accuracy of the warren commissions report.

joel

Hi Joel,
Interesting....here is some testimony from a Proffessor Guinn of the univ of california.Guinn was the leading authority on neutron activation analysis (NAA)..He testified that "unlike other manufactured bullets, Mannlicher Carcano ammunition composition (particularly ,but not exclusively in antimony content) vary from bullet to bullet ,even within the same case" and that there was always "a measurement uncertainty,and one can never tell whether real measures within this particular bullet are a little higher or a little lower"
Question..."So at any time you conduct an naa examination of a bullet fragment,you would probabley come upwith different parts per million. Is that correct?
Guinn.... "Yes even with the same fragment, even if you ran it over and over again"
Guinn said that he had totalled the weight of the bullet fragments...3 from Connallys wrist,two from kennedys brain,the stretcher bullet..the 2 fragments on the floor of the presidential limousine....total weight 226 grains..the weight of 2 UNDAMAGED bullets would have been 322 grains...in other words LESS than the weight of 2 bullets.....the fragments not weighed were several minor flakes left in connallys wrist and a fragment left in connallys femur.
He was asked "is there no evidence that more than 2 bullets had hit anything with oin the limousine? he replied "That is correct,and there is solid evidence that there were only 2"
The NAA scientific evidence showed that ALL the bullet fragments(including the "stretcher bullet" which amounted to 2 whole bullets were fired from oswalds rifle and NO other rifle.
regards

[sdreid]

I also remember hearing that evening on a foreign shortwave radio station that the "shooters" were firing from the overpass, again, completely fictitious.

[joelhall]

hey guys,

now i should point out this is the only credible evidence ive seen that some of the conclusions made by the warren commision are unsafe.

this does not prove a conspiracy, who did the shooting, nor prove oswalds innocence. it merely shows that the conclusion of 2 bullets only is called into question, also that there was only one shooter (whomever that may be).

this is taken from the illustated guide to forensics - true crime scene investigtions by dr. z. erzinclioglu, sevenoaks, 2004.

dr. zakaria erzinclioglu, a forensics scientist, has been sr. research associate at cambridge university, director of the forensic science research centre at durham university, and an affiliated researcher at cambridge university, as well as being involved in over 500 murder cases in britain and the us.

this if from page 108, involving the evidence on the bullet fragments taken from the car.

the results, from the warren commision, which were reviewed independantly by dr. erzinclioglu, are as follows...

'the results of the study of the fragments were held by the warren commission to show that only two bullets struck the occupants of the car. this is puzzling, since it is clear that the trace element evidence shows that more than two bullets were fired.

'the results for traces of silver, in parts per million, were as follows (the ranges of the results are given in brackets):

1. from connallys stretcher 8.8 +/- 0.5 (8.3-9.3)
2. from connallys wrist 9.8 +/-0.5 (9.3-10.3)
3. large fragment from car 8.1 +/-0.6 (7.5-8.7)
4. from kennedys brain 7.9+/-0.3 (7.6-8.2)
5. small fragments from car 8.2 +/-0.4 (7.8-8.6)

'the range of silver in 1 & 2 just meet, which is inconclusive, since they could represent either one or two bullets.
the ranges for the remaining three specimens overlap considerably and suggest that the fragments came from one bullet.

'the results of the antimony analysis showed the following results:

1. from connallys stretcher 833 +/-9 (824-842)
2. from connallys wrist 797 +/-7 (790-804)
3. large fragment from car 602 +/-4 (598-606)
4. from kennedys brain 621+/-4 (617-625)
5. small fragments from car 642+/-6 (636-648)

'none of the ranges of trace antimony in the bullets or fragments overlap, yet these results were used to demonstrate that only two bullets were fired, which is an impossible conclusion. of particular interest is the fact that the two connally bullets show very different ranges. what all this means is another matter. it certainly does not prove conspiracy. but this is not the point. the point is that, in spite of the fact that some of the evidence suggests that the accepted version of events is incorrect, that very evidence was used to "demonstrate" the opposite. such things do happen in forensic science.'

this is the only real evidence i have seen to seriously question the accuracy of the warren commissions report.

joel

[dougie]

The details within that link and the conclusions that follow have been proved incorrect years ago.

[Stephen Thomas]

Is there a link to that info/argument....Id be interested to see/read it.

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/warren.htm

[joelhall]

Hi joel,
Is there a link to that info/argument....Id be interested to see/read it.
regards

no link i know of but i will post the relevent information when i get back in tonight

joel

[dougie]

Stan,
Yes quite,there were unfounded rumours then ,now and probabley more to come in the future. And its interesting that quite a few of the silliest theories have originated from people in a position to know better.In some ways of course its a bit of a dissapointment to realise that nobody else was involved. Conspiracies, cover -ups and the rest is a lot more exciting than the plain old "screwball with a rifle" syndrome.
But if anybody wants conspiracy theories, visit the education forum jfk assassination f for them,I think even Martians are involved in one of the theories Its amazing what some people choose to believe.
regards