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  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    The fact the hole appears to be elongated made me think the bullet was tumbling at this point, but I wondered if that was due to it striking something else first, apparently not. It is a natural result of instability at the end of its range of accuracy.
    Possibly, but I'm not sure the distances involved were anything like the maximum range of a rifle bullet. More likely the elongated entry hole was a result of the angle at which the skull was struck, the "keyhole" effect mentioned above.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
      Possibly, but I'm not sure the distances involved were anything like the maximum range of a rifle bullet. More likely the elongated entry hole was a result of the angle at which the skull was struck, the "keyhole" effect mentioned above.
      If you look at page 3 (Autopsy report), second paragraph, we can read the description of the wound in his back. This was also elongated 7 mm x 4 mm.

      We have the same problem, an oval shaped entry wound.
      Yet the position of the shooter (TSBD), seems to be directly behind the President. Both wounds should be close to circular, there doesn't seem to be an angle involved.

      If a 6.5 mm bullet can make a 6 mm entry, then what about a 6.5 mm bullet making a 4 mm entry?

      Then we have the apparent fact that these bullets, which the single-shooter theory require, are the same caliber yet they react so differently.
      The bullet to the head explodes inside the skull, bullet fragments are retrieved from the brain tissue, so we know it broke up.
      However, the bullet to his back, which struck several bones, exited without breaking up, and left an entry hole 4 mm wide, then went through Connolly and ended up still intact.

      Some have speculated that these wounds were produced by two different caliber bullets.
      Regards, Jon S.

      Comment


      • CIA wondered if Oswald's passport request was for escape after assassination.

        CIA officials wondered in the days after President John F. Kennedy's assassination whether Lee Harvey Oswald's efforts to obtain visas to travel to Russia had been part of an escape plan, newly released government documents show.


        CIA also missed seeing Oswald's visit to Russian embassy because they weren't watching it on a Saturday, which is when he went. They ended up requesting more resources and people for future surveillance of "both the Sov and Cuban embassies"
        Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
        ---------------
        Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
        ---------------

        Comment



        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
          I’m not saying that conspiracies can’t be true only that people can fall into a certain kind of thinking when pursuing them. All caution can get thrown to the wind. Alleged ‘links’ are discovered or plucked out of thin air. With the JFK thing we have a conspiracy that would have had to have involved 100’s of people and yet 70 years later nothing solid has been produced as far as I can see. So we have a conspiracy where they didn’t even bother with an escape plan for Oswald. They left him free to roam and to potentially blab but at no time does he ever say “it wasn’t just me,” or “I was set up.” . Then coincidentally on the route that we know that he took to the cinema a policeman was shot before Oswald was arrested with the actual gun on him. Then we get Ruby’s ‘planned assassination’ where he stopped off to mail some money to one of his strippers before going to the police station where, if Oswald hadn’t requested a jacket, he would have missed seeing him. Some plot. It makes absolutely no sense to me. But hey, perhaps it was planned by Laurel and Hardy?
          100s ? I doubt that , only a hand full of top Mafia mob bosses ,CIA ops , and Dallas police offials. 3 top marksmen need know






          Did the Warren Commission ever show proof that LHO fired ''The rifle'' that killed jfk . NO....... Did later paraffin test conclude he did not fire any rifle on the 22nd Nov .Yes



          Sgt. Gerald Hill, who was at the scene of the Tippit murder, identified spent shells as belonging to an .38 automatic, not revolver.

          Also the FBI lab said that the firing pin on Oswald’s revolver was defective and would not strike the cartridges with sufficient force to have fired them. Makes sense when you consider he tried to fire the revolver in the theatre but it never discharged !!



          When asked if he killed the President Oswalds reply is No , i havent been charged with that .







          If Rubys intent was to kill Oswald and he somehow got wind he would be at the police station, what difference does it make if LHO requsested a jacket or not?. He could have stopped for a glass of water ,take a pizz, do his shoe lace up , Ruby would have just waited till he arrive at the spot he kew he would be coming out . Lets leave Laurel and Hardy to the funny stuff .



          Joseph A. Laydon Jr.

          Former Wilderness Survival Instructor at U.S. Army (1991–1994)

          JFK Assassination (November 1963): What is the most compelling evidence that Oswald was not the only shooter?

          On 22 November 1963 at 1230 in the afternoon – Central Time, President John F. Kennedy was assassinated in his motorcade as it travelled through Dealey Plaza in Dallas, Texas. Here’s the controversy: Was Lee Harvey Oswald the lone assassin? Here’s my answer: Not only NO, but HELL NO, TIMES 100 TO THE 10th Power!!!!!!

          He never fired a shot. This comes from my training, experiences, and teaching sniping to snipers who were dang good shooters to average shooters (still above average compared to the average soldier). Here’s why I say multiple shooters were involved in assassinating JFK. Let me break it down for you.

          Sniper System: True sniper systems are “accurized.” They are modified so there is NO UNNECESSARY MOVEMENT in the weapon. All working & moving parts of the weapon are polished & tailored for precision performance. The iron sights and telescopic sight are tailored for that specific weapon. The weapon used by Lee Harvey Oswald was a simple bolt action, Italian carbine, Carcano Model 91/38 that fired a 6.5mm X 57mm bullet with a velocity of 2,300-feet per second. The Carcano Model 91/38 was not a sniper system but a regular battlefield weapon for regular troops. It was initially designed back in the 1800s.

          Moving Target: JFK is a moving target. Targets can be hit all day long at that short range (approximately 81-meters (265-feet) when it’s static. But a moving target is more difficult to hit, especially a very precise aim & hit target like the head, the throat and from a higher elevation (a moving vertical angle shot) from the 6th floor (60-feet elevation). To date, NOBODY, NOBODY, one more time, NOBODY has ever replicated what Oswald supposedly did on 22 November 1963. In 1967, CBS hired 11 professional marksmen to replicate Oswald’s marksmanship – again, NOBODY NOBODY could replicate what Oswald supposedly did on 22 November 1963.

          Oswald – Expert Marksman?: Documents can be doctored but an eyewitness is stone cold proof that Oswald was a poor marksman. According to an eye witness – former Marine Nelson Delgado, Oswald was “a pretty big joke” because he got a lot of complete misses. Another Marine Sherman Cooley “If I had to pick one man in the entire United States to shoot me, I’d pick Oswald. I saw the man shoot. There’s no way he could have ever learned to shoot well enough to do what they accused him of doing in Dallas.” And the 2nd top sniper (Top Sniper - US Army Adelbert Waldron – 109 confirmed kills) in the Vietnam war – the famous Gunnery Sergeant Carlos N. Hathcock II with only 93 confirmed kills.

          Hathcock reconstructed the JFK assassination at Quantico, Virginia (Marine Corps Scout Sniper School). “I don’t know how many times we tried it, but we couldn’t duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did.”

          'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

          Never more appliable than with JFk



          In the end it comes down to this, people who believe the warren commission and people who dont, if the WC is to be believed and Oswald did fire the fatal shots that killed kennedy ,how is it that Hathcock , Waldron and many other expert couldnt duplicate it ?

          Off topic thread [my apologies] , so ill leave it at that and only post any reply on a related thread
          'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
            I dont think therell be any revelations there. Its case closed. Oswald did it on his own. Absolutely no doubt at all.
            Yes agree H watched very interesting documentary other day re created the whole day using engineering-lazers etc was incredible!! Also using 4 different cini footage!! I was quite convinced with the facts !! Oswald lone gunman!!

            Comment


            • The best theory I read was the secret man service man travelling in the car behind accidentally firing the fatal shot all the evidence backed it up.
              The third cartridge on the floor of the depository just doesnt make sense in the scenario suggested by the authorities.

              Comment


              • FISHY1118 View Post

                100s ? I doubt that , only a hand full of top Mafia mob bosses ,CIA ops , and Dallas police offials. 3 top marksmen need know

                Its still more than would have needed to be aware of an ID parade in 1888. But I’d certainly stick with 100’s. What about the supposed ‘fake’ secret service men on the Grassy Knoll seen by liars like the former military guy who said that he dropped the ground as soon as he heard the shots only to find that film footage taken from the other side of the road showed that there was no one standing where he claimed to have been standing. What about the Warren Commission who were alleged to have been ‘in’ on the cover up? There were lots of researchers involved.

                Did the Warren Commission ever show proof that LHO fired ''The rifle'' that killed jfk . NO....... Did later paraffin test conclude he did not fire any rifle on the 22nd Nov .Yes

                The Dallas police performed a paraffin test on Oswald’s hands during his interrogation. It came back positive for nitrates and gunpowder residue on his hands.

                Sgt. Gerald Hill, who was at the scene of the Tippit murder, identified spent shells as belonging to an .38 automatic, not revolver.

                The four cartridge cases that were found at the scene of the Tippit murder were tested by the Warren Commision and the HSCA firearms experts who concluded that they came from Oswald’s revolver to the exclusion of all other weapons. And just to remind you, this was the revolver that Oswald admitted to collecting when he went back to his rooming house. He also had 5 matching live cartridges in his pocket at the time of his arrest. So our conspirators must have sneakily taken the gun from Oswald without him knowing it, killed Tippit, then planted it back on him.

                Also the FBI lab said that the firing pin on Oswald’s revolver was defective and would not strike the cartridges with sufficient force to have fired them. Makes sense when you consider he tried to fire the revolver in the theatre but it never discharged !!

                When asked if he killed the President Oswalds reply is No , i havent been charged with that .

                Many people plead innocent at first so we can’t read much into that. What we can ‘read into’ though is that at no time during his confinement did Oswald talk about being set up or about being a part of a conspiracy.

                If Rubys intent was to kill Oswald and he somehow got wind he would be at the police station, what difference does it make if LHO requsested a jacket or not?. He could have stopped for a glass of water ,take a pizz, do his shoe lace up , Ruby would have just waited till he arrive at the spot he kew he would be coming out . Lets leave Laurel and Hardy to the funny stuff .

                You miss the point. If Oswald hadn’t asked for his jacket and an officer hadn’t had to go back to get it, then he would have been in the car/van and gone by the time that Ruby got there. No one could have known that Oswald was going to ask for this. So unless Oswald was conspiring with Ruby and the police on an elaborate suicide plot then we can safely say that there was no organised plan to kill Oswald here.




                In the end it comes down to this, people who believe the warren commission and people who dont, if the WC is to be believed and Oswald did fire the fatal shots that killed kennedy ,how is it that Hathcock , Waldron and many other expert couldnt duplicate it ?

                Off topic thread [my apologies] , so ill leave it at that and only post any reply on a related thread
                We have umbrella’s being used as signals, we have men firing from storm drains, we have Woody Harrelson’s dad being claimed as the sniper, we have Garrison identifying about 20 snipers being involved! We have LBJ being involved, Hoover being involved, rogue police officers being the killer, the Mafia, the CIA, the Texas oil men hiring Mexican assassins. Where does it end? With group of conspirators putting a gunmen behind a picket fence near numerous bystanders who could have decided to go and apprehend the killer or at the very least told investigators that the shots came from there. They might also have been able to have given a description of him. They have him standing with a huge car park full of cars behind him where at any time someone could have parked up or gone to his car and seen the killer or even tried to apprehend him. This killer who stood on muddy ground but didn’t leave a single print or mark. And did they have a car waiting to spirit Oswald away from Dallas as even the dimmest of plotters would have done? No they leave him wandering around catching a bus then leaving the bus when it got stuck in traffic to jump into a taxi to take him to his rooming house. But does he get dropped outside the door? No he gets dropped a distance away then walks back. He then picks up a revolver, as any innocent man would do, and just happens to pass a police officer who is killed with the same gun. A gun, like the rifle, which was ordered via mail by an Alex Hidell (who didn’t exist) And what name was on the card in Oswald’s pocket? Yup, Alex Hidell. How many rabbit holes have to be opened up to try and disprove the obvious? It’s madness. Oswald was clearly guilty. To quote Blackadder, he was “as guilty as a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo.”

                This was my response to Fishy from the other thread.
                Regards

                Sir Herlock Sholmes

                “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                Comment


                • Could there have been some kind of ‘conspiracy’ ? There could have been but none of it makes much sense imo. Someone could have met Oswald - a disaffected oddball who felt that the world had never really appreciated him, and found that he was ex-military and marksman training and who had strong political views and who worked in a building overlooking the Presidential route and suggested the idea of killing Kennedy. Perhaps that person, perhaps on behalf of others, told him that they would get him away from Dealey Plaza after the event and that he would be well rewarded but they then abandoned him. If he’d only had contact with one unknown person then he would have had no way of identifying any group of conspirators. Perhaps they told him to get to the cinema where he would be spirited away. He grabs his gun and then panics when he sees Tippit and kills him. It doesn’t explain why he kept quiet after his arrest unless they’d told him that they would get him out of captured. Possible but it seems unlikely to say the least.

                  He changed his routing to sr]tay at Ruth Paine’s house. The tight-fisted Oswald leaves his wife a considerable pile of cash and his wedding ring before setting off. He has a long thin parcel which he claimed were curtain rods. For the first time he carried no lunch box to work. Instead of walking to the Depository from the car park with Fraser he walls on alone in a hurry to get inside. The packaging was found on the 6th floor. The gun was bought by Oswald. His prints were on the gun in areas where only someone who disassembled the gun could have left prints. A guy sees a guy with a gun in that very window. He’s the only person that leaves the building after the shooting. He gets the taxi to drop him a distance from his rooming house. His landlady said that he had no need for or had made any mention of curtain rods. He picks up a revolver and collects a jacket which is found under a car in a car park on the way to the cinema. Numerous people identify him as the guy at the scene of the Tippit shooting leaving the scene with a gun in his hand. He’s arrested with the gun on him (also ordered via mail order by him.)

                  If Oswald had consulted a crime author he couldn’t have made himself look more guilty than he actually did. If he was part of a conspiracy then his co-conspirators were top level dimwits. Whatever the minutiae of the case and all the individual points of discussion none of this makes sense. That one sad, disaffected loner does make sense though because history is full of them.
                  Regards

                  Sir Herlock Sholmes

                  “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                    Could there have been some kind of ‘conspiracy’ ? There could have been but none of it makes much sense imo. Someone could have met Oswald - a disaffected oddball who felt that the world had never really appreciated him, and found that he was ex-military and marksman training and who had strong political views and who worked in a building overlooking the Presidential route and suggested the idea of killing Kennedy. Perhaps that person, perhaps on behalf of others, told him that they would get him away from Dealey Plaza after the event and that he would be well rewarded but they then abandoned him. If he’d only had contact with one unknown person then he would have had no way of identifying any group of conspirators. Perhaps they told him to get to the cinema where he would be spirited away. He grabs his gun and then panics when he sees Tippit and kills him. It doesn’t explain why he kept quiet after his arrest unless they’d told him that they would get him out of captured. Possible but it seems unlikely to say the least.

                    He changed his routing to sr]tay at Ruth Paine’s house. The tight-fisted Oswald leaves his wife a considerable pile of cash and his wedding ring before setting off. He has a long thin parcel which he claimed were curtain rods. For the first time he carried no lunch box to work. Instead of walking to the Depository from the car park with Fraser he walls on alone in a hurry to get inside. The packaging was found on the 6th floor. The gun was bought by Oswald. His prints were on the gun in areas where only someone who disassembled the gun could have left prints. A guy sees a guy with a gun in that very window. He’s the only person that leaves the building after the shooting. He gets the taxi to drop him a distance from his rooming house. His landlady said that he had no need for or had made any mention of curtain rods. He picks up a revolver and collects a jacket which is found under a car in a car park on the way to the cinema. Numerous people identify him as the guy at the scene of the Tippit shooting leaving the scene with a gun in his hand. He’s arrested with the gun on him (also ordered via mail order by him.)

                    If Oswald had consulted a crime author he couldn’t have made himself look more guilty than he actually did. If he was part of a conspiracy then his co-conspirators were top level dimwits. Whatever the minutiae of the case and all the individual points of discussion none of this makes sense. That one sad, disaffected loner does make sense though because history is full of them.
                    Hi Herlock,

                    I was nearly 15 when JFK was assassinated and was glued to our TV set from the time the news reached Australia. I remember seeing footage of the bystanders on the north side of Elm St all converging on the grassy knoll after the shots were fired. Were they all mistaken? I remember seeing a couple with two children crouching on the lawn in the same area and saw the husband, William Newman, state that he heard the head shot whistle over his head from the grassy knoll. Was he also mistaken? I recall a railway employee who was standing on the overpass say in an interview that he saw a car pull into the parking area, three men get out and proceed to the grassy knoll, return to the car after the shooting and a man in a police uniform stopping the bystanders that were converging on the grassy knoll. Then there was Dallas Police officer, Marrion Baker, who raced into the depository immediately after the last shot and encountered a calm Oswald drinking a coke less than two minutes after the assassination. Oswald wasn't out of breath as would be expected if he had just hidden a rifle, raced across the sixth floor and down five flights of stairs to the lunch room, extracted a coke from the machine, opened it and was drinking it.

                    I'm in agreement with Jon, that Oswald was involved but not as a shooter, and I concur with his point regarding the army ammunition designed to pass through a body and the fragmentation head shot not coming from the same rifle. If he is taken out of that role I would pretty much agree with your post, the point being his handler wanted to make Oswald look as guilty as possible, and when he wasn't picked up he twigged he was being set up as a patsy.

                    Cheers, George
                    Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

                    Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
                    Or you will also be like him.
                    Answer a fool as his folly deserves,
                    That he not be wise in his own eyes. - Proverbs 26:4 and 26:5

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                      Hi Herlock,

                      I was nearly 15 when JFK was assassinated and was glued to our TV set from the time the news reached Australia. I remember seeing footage of the bystanders on the north side of Elm St all converging on the grassy knoll after the shots were fired. Were they all mistaken? I remember seeing a couple with two children crouching on the lawn in the same area and saw the husband, William Newman, state that he heard the head shot whistle over his head from the grassy knoll. Was he also mistaken? I recall a railway employee who was standing on the overpass say in an interview that he saw a car pull into the parking area, three men get out and proceed to the grassy knoll, return to the car after the shooting and a man in a police uniform stopping the bystanders that were converging on the grassy knoll. Then there was Dallas Police officer, Marrion Baker, who raced into the depository immediately after the last shot and encountered a calm Oswald drinking a coke less than two minutes after the assassination. Oswald wasn't out of breath as would be expected if he had just hidden a rifle, raced across the sixth floor and down five flights of stairs to the lunch room, extracted a coke from the machine, opened it and was drinking it.

                      I'm in agreement with Jon, that Oswald was involved but not as a shooter, and I concur with his point regarding the army ammunition designed to pass through a body and the fragmentation head shot not coming from the same rifle. If he is taken out of that role I would pretty much agree with your post, the point being his handler wanted to make Oswald look as guilty as possible, and when he wasn't picked up he twigged he was being set up as a patsy.

                      Cheers, George
                      Hi George,

                      My first question would have to be - why did Oswald never mention being set up? He had plenty of opportunity after all during his extensive interviews.

                      Some people did think that they heard the shots coming from the fence but many didn’t (I can’t recall how many did and didn’t). The area was a bit of an echo chamber and so it was difficult to tell where a sound came from. I’d suggest, and it’s only my opinion, that it would have been more difficult with short sharp sounds like gunfire and especially under stressful circumstances. If memory serves, a few people admitted to running toward the picket fence because they followed someone else so it would only have needed one or two initially resulting in others following.

                      Bugliosi does give an answer to your Marion Baker point but I don’t have the book with me.

                      My second question would have to be - how could an assassin (who wasn’t Oswald) have chosen the 6th floor of the Book Depository to kill the President? How could he have known who would be working on that floor on that particular day and that those employees would decide to leave the floor deserted at exactly the time that the motorcade passed? Those windows were perfect for watching the President pass. If we consider witnesses what about Howard Brennan who saw a man with a gun at the window of the Book Depository? He was initially unsure of an ID because Oswald was dishevelled when he saw him next but later said that he believed that it was him (to this day) The description that the Police immediately put out was Brennan’s. The conspiracy theorists tried to discredit him by saying that he had a problem with his eyesight but actually he was far sighted and not near sighted.

                      On the Grassy Knoll fence, I’ve always thought - why would an assassin, especially one that was part of a conspiracy have chosen such a terrible spot? There were bystanders nearby, anyone of whom could have turned around and seen him at close range. And would he have risked any number of have-a-go heroes giving chase? Also, why choose a spot with a large car park full of cars directly behind him? Cars going in and out, people getting out of them. I can’t really think of a riskier spot for an assassination. And there’s that fact that the other side of the fence was just dirt/mud and yet there wasn’t a single piece of evidence that anyone had been standing there.

                      I realise that most people go with conspiracy but I think it was Oswald alone. It’s less convoluted and ‘interesting’ but I think it’s the likeliest solution. I was really interested in the case for 2 or 3 years but have pretty much lost interest these days mainly due to some of the craziness of the convoluted theories that kept getting put forward. It’s not really something that I feel very strongly about. I don’t think that there will ever be anything like a ‘conclusion’ that satisfies all.

                      Regards

                      Sir Herlock Sholmes

                      “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                        Hi Herlock,

                        I was nearly 15 when JFK was assassinated and was glued to our TV set from the time the news reached Australia. I remember seeing footage of the bystanders on the north side of Elm St all converging on the grassy knoll after the shots were fired. Were they all mistaken? I remember seeing a couple with two children crouching on the lawn in the same area and saw the husband, William Newman, state that he heard the head shot whistle over his head from the grassy knoll. Was he also mistaken? I recall a railway employee who was standing on the overpass say in an interview that he saw a car pull into the parking area, three men get out and proceed to the grassy knoll, return to the car after the shooting and a man in a police uniform stopping the bystanders that were converging on the grassy knoll. Then there was Dallas Police officer, Marrion Baker, who raced into the depository immediately after the last shot and encountered a calm Oswald drinking a coke less than two minutes after the assassination. Oswald wasn't out of breath as would be expected if he had just hidden a rifle, raced across the sixth floor and down five flights of stairs to the lunch room, extracted a coke from the machine, opened it and was drinking it.

                        I'm in agreement with Jon, that Oswald was involved but not as a shooter, and I concur with his point regarding the army ammunition designed to pass through a body and the fragmentation head shot not coming from the same rifle. If he is taken out of that role I would pretty much agree with your post, the point being his handler wanted to make Oswald look as guilty as possible, and when he wasn't picked up he twigged he was being set up as a patsy.

                        Cheers, George
                        Hi George , if ever anyone needed any more proof that Oswald didnt shoot President Kennedy, just watch this New Documentary from the 24th Nov 2022 titled ''The ''Innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald''


                        You might want to pay attention to the part about Howard Brennan [9.30 min onwards ] which had nothing at all to do with his eyesight i might add .

                        If Howard Brennan is to be believed , then what about Barbara and Arnold Rowland at 13.00 min ?


                        Then there is the Rifle 15.00 mins to 18.00 min BOOOOOOMMMM case closed . Poor Oswald never fired a shot .
                        Last edited by FISHY1118; 02-06-2023, 12:11 PM.
                        'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                          Hi George,

                          My first question would have to be - why did Oswald never mention being set up? He had plenty of opportunity after all during his extensive interviews.

                          Some people did think that they heard the shots coming from the fence but many didn’t (I can’t recall how many did and didn’t). The area was a bit of an echo chamber and so it was difficult to tell where a sound came from. I’d suggest, and it’s only my opinion, that it would have been more difficult with short sharp sounds like gunfire and especially under stressful circumstances. If memory serves, a few people admitted to running toward the picket fence because they followed someone else so it would only have needed one or two initially resulting in others following.

                          Bugliosi does give an answer to your Marion Baker point but I don’t have the book with me.

                          My second question would have to be - how could an assassin (who wasn’t Oswald) have chosen the 6th floor of the Book Depository to kill the President? How could he have known who would be working on that floor on that particular day and that those employees would decide to leave the floor deserted at exactly the time that the motorcade passed? Those windows were perfect for watching the President pass. If we consider witnesses what about Howard Brennan who saw a man with a gun at the window of the Book Depository? He was initially unsure of an ID because Oswald was dishevelled when he saw him next but later said that he believed that it was him (to this day) The description that the Police immediately put out was Brennan’s. The conspiracy theorists tried to discredit him by saying that he had a problem with his eyesight but actually he was far sighted and not near sighted.

                          On the Grassy Knoll fence, I’ve always thought - why would an assassin, especially one that was part of a conspiracy have chosen such a terrible spot? There were bystanders nearby, anyone of whom could have turned around and seen him at close range. And would he have risked any number of have-a-go heroes giving chase? Also, why choose a spot with a large car park full of cars directly behind him? Cars going in and out, people getting out of them. I can’t really think of a riskier spot for an assassination. And there’s that fact that the other side of the fence was just dirt/mud and yet there wasn’t a single piece of evidence that anyone had been standing there.

                          I realise that most people go with conspiracy but I think it was Oswald alone. It’s less convoluted and ‘interesting’ but I think it’s the likeliest solution. I was really interested in the case for 2 or 3 years but have pretty much lost interest these days mainly due to some of the craziness of the convoluted theories that kept getting put forward. It’s not really something that I feel very strongly about. I don’t think that there will ever be anything like a ‘conclusion’ that satisfies all.
                          Hi Herlock,

                          I have been following this case for nearly 60 years, and agree that there have been many lunatic fringe theories put forward. Unlike JtR, this case has the advantage of being able to actually view video of the interviews with witnesses at the time, and it is easy to take a look at some of those interviews on Youtube. There is one interview where one of the railway employees who was on the overpass says he and his two friends walked around to the picket fence after the shooting an saw footprints in the mud near the picket fence. There was multiple witness evidence, and a photograph, to say that there were actually two men seen in the TSBD window.

                          There are also signed statements such, as several documents that state that the weapon was a Mauser, and that there were only two empty cartridge cases and a live round in the chamber. All the doctors at Parkland stated that there was a gaping hole in the right rear of the head and several said the hole in the throat was an entry wound.

                          Bugliosi's answer to the Marrion Baker testimony could only be conjecture as there were two women who were using the stairs at the time and they didn't see Oswald, and the lift wasn't working due to the blackout.

                          Cheers, George
                          Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

                          Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
                          Or you will also be like him.
                          Answer a fool as his folly deserves,
                          That he not be wise in his own eyes. - Proverbs 26:4 and 26:5

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

                            Hi George , if ever anyone needed any more proof that Oswald didnt shoot President Kennedy, just watch this New Documentary from the 24th Nov 2022 titled ''The ''Innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald''


                            You might want to pay attention to the part about Howard Brennan [9.30 min onwards ] which had nothing at all to do with his eyesight i might add .

                            If Howard Brennan is to be believed , then what about Barbara and Arnold Rowland at 13.00 min ?


                            Then there is the Rifle 15.00 mins to 18.00 min BOOOOOOMMMM case closed . Poor Oswald never fired a shot .
                            Hi Fishy,

                            I don't need much convincing, but thank you for the link.

                            Cheers, George
                            Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

                            Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
                            Or you will also be like him.
                            Answer a fool as his folly deserves,
                            That he not be wise in his own eyes. - Proverbs 26:4 and 26:5

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

                              Hi George , if ever anyone needed any more proof that Oswald didnt shoot President Kennedy, just watch this New Documentary from the 24th Nov 2022 titled ''The ''Innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald''


                              You might want to pay attention to the part about Howard Brennan [9.30 min onwards ] which had nothing at all to do with his eyesight i might add .

                              If Howard Brennan is to be believed , then what about Barbara and Arnold Rowland at 13.00 min ?


                              Then there is the Rifle 15.00 mins to 18.00 min BOOOOOOMMMM case closed . Poor Oswald never fired a shot .
                              One issue is that in a post on the other thread you took issue with my suggestion that a cover-up would have involved 100’s of people. The author Gary Fannin however, on whose book that documentary is based, said that the conspiracy involved - The US Government, The Vice-President Lyndon Johnson, FBI, CIA, the Mafia and Texas Oilmen. He left out Bob Dylan and Count Basie though!

                              How difficult would it have been to contain such a wide-ranging conspiracy? Difficult or impossible?

                              Why, with all of those expert resources to hand, did they come up with the useless plan that they settled on? They find some loser with military rifle training and political activism who just happened to work in a building overlooking the motorcade route which was altered at the last minute. They then place a gunman where he could have been seen by literally dozens of people and they provide absolutely no escape plan for their fall guy. They then leave him wandering around to get arrested and interrogated; completed blasť about the possibility of him spilling the beans to the police or to the Press that were hanging around the police station. But killing the President wasn’t enough for them, they set up a plot to kill a police officer too; in the process arranging for witnesses to see Oswald running away from the scene with a gun. How did Tippit’s murder assist the plot? Or did he just get in the way of an escaping killer?

                              Why didn’t those high level, highly trained operatives simply put a couple of snipers in other buildings with top grade military weapons? Escape plan sorted, bang, bang, job done. No need for an Oswald whose presence would have pointlessly complicated things and increased the chances of the plot unfolding. So I’ll repeat, when did these people (police, government, CIA, FBI, Mafia) start employing cretins to do something as incredibly significant as assassinate the President?
                              Regards

                              Sir Herlock Sholmes

                              “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                                One issue is that in a post on the other thread you took issue with my suggestion that a cover-up would have involved 100’s of people. The author Gary Fannin however, on whose book that documentary is based, said that the conspiracy involved - The US Government, The Vice-President Lyndon Johnson, FBI, CIA, the Mafia and Texas Oilmen. He left out Bob Dylan and Count Basie though!

                                How difficult would it have been to contain such a wide-ranging conspiracy? Difficult or impossible?

                                Why, with all of those expert resources to hand, did they come up with the useless plan that they settled on? They find some loser with military rifle training and political activism who just happened to work in a building overlooking the motorcade route which was altered at the last minute. They then place a gunman where he could have been seen by literally dozens of people and they provide absolutely no escape plan for their fall guy. They then leave him wandering around to get arrested and interrogated; completed blasť about the possibility of him spilling the beans to the police or to the Press that were hanging around the police station. But killing the President wasn’t enough for them, they set up a plot to kill a police officer too; in the process arranging for witnesses to see Oswald running away from the scene with a gun. How did Tippit’s murder assist the plot? Or did he just get in the way of an escaping killer?

                                Why didn’t those high level, highly trained operatives simply put a couple of snipers in other buildings with top grade military weapons? Escape plan sorted, bang, bang, job done. No need for an Oswald whose presence would have pointlessly complicated things and increased the chances of the plot unfolding. So I’ll repeat, when did these people (police, government, CIA, FBI, Mafia) start employing cretins to do something as incredibly significant as assassinate the President?
                                Very sensible post. Clearly a load of b******s but these conspiracy theory types are just plain old daft.

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