Do you think William Herbert Wallace was guilty?

[ColdCaseJury]

Afterwards the bath water flushed down the toilet.Time needed,five minutes if in a hurry,and five minutes maximum to dress.Well within the 14 minutes police estimated Wallace would have had.

Yes, but this house did have a bath and a flushing toilet. The drains were tested with the Benzidine test. Nothing. I would saying throwing bloodied water into a toilet (or anywhere) risked getting some on Wallace.

As for the timings, as I point out in my book, the maximum available was most likely ten minutes. The police timings on this point are dubious at best. And in your timings you have to include the killing, any tidying-up, staging of the robbery, and potentially the disposal of the murder weapon.

What was the murder weapon? Where was it hidden?

These remain unknown.

[Graham]

Yes, that was an interesting article on the Qualtrough family. So is the suggestion that whoever made the phone-call spot the name 'Qualtrough' on the wall of the carpenter's shop and use it in the sense that it was local and as good a name as any to lend verisimilitude to his call?

And yes CCJ - what was the murder-weapon and what did become of it?

Graham

[Pcdunn]

Yes, that was an interesting article on the Qualtrough family. So is the suggestion that whoever made the phone-call spot the name 'Qualtrough' on the wall of the carpenter's shop and use it in the sense that it was local and as good a name as any to lend verisimilitude to his call?

Graham

Hello, Graham,

Yes, that is my reasoning about the possible use of the name "Qualtrough", with perhaps the additional benefit that it is unusual enough to stick in the listener's memory (the typically vague Smith or Jones might not have done so).

Whether Wallace himself made the call, or an accomplice did so using scripted information provided by Wallace, I'm not sure yet. I'd lean to the idea that Wallace did make the call, as his entire proposed alibi rests on someone receiving the call and taking the message. To make sure this was done right, Wallace may have handled it himself.
But the publican denies the caller was Wallace, whose voice he knew. Still, voices can be disguised, and earlier telephones may not have been as distinct as ours. If Wallace was the caller, then presumably he knew the Menlove Gardens he was asking for didn't exist.

[ColdCaseJury]

Yes, that was an interesting article on the Qualtrough family. So is the suggestion that whoever made the phone-call spot the name 'Qualtrough' on the wall of the carpenter's shop and use it in the sense that it was local and as good a name as any to lend verisimilitude to his call?

A definite possibility. But the choice of the name is not so important as:

a) The timings. It is possible that Wallace made the call AND arrived at the chess club at 7:45pm, but is it likely? The timings look improbable if he took a tram, and we simply don't know enough about bus timings (contra author James Murphy). However, it would have been easy for Wallace to leave his house and arrive at the club by 7:45pm the way he said he did.

b) Parry's evasion of where he was on the night of the call. He misled the police on this matter in his written statement.

Surely, these factors point away from Wallace making the call?

[Pcdunn]

Well... Hmm... maybe

A definite possibility. But the choice of the name is not so important as:

a) The timings. It is possible that Wallace made the call AND arrived at the chess club at 7:45pm, but is it likely? The timings look improbable if he took a tram, and we simply don't know enough about bus timings (contra author James Murphy). However, it would have been easy for Wallace to leave his house and arrive at the club by 7:45pm the way he said he did.

b) Parry's evasion of where he was on the night of the call. He misled the police on this matter in his written statement.

Surely, these factors point away from Wallace making the call?

Hi, CCJ,

Interesting information, adds to my knowledge of the case. Yes, it looks more as if Wallace may have had an accomplice make the peculiar call and leave the message from "Mr. Qualtrough", if we still want to go with the planned alibi scenario. Thank you for the reply.

[Joshua Rogan]

Is the location of the telephone box from which the call was made known? It would be interesting to know if it's anywhere near the shop where the name Qualtrough was painted - The shop seems to be about 800yards walking distance from Wallace's house, but, as the crow flies, can't be much more than the stated 400 yards. Could the caller see the sign from the phone box, like some sort of Liverpudlian Keyser Soze?

[Spitfire]

Is the location of the telephone box from which the call was made known? It would be interesting to know if it's anywhere near the shop where the name Qualtrough was painted - The shop seems to be about 800yards walking distance from Wallace's house, but, as the crow flies, can't be much more than the stated 400 yards. Could the caller see the sign from the phone box, like some sort of Liverpudlian Keyser Soze?

I think the phone box from which the call was made was situate on a triangle which was formed by the junction of Priory Road and Breck Road (the triangle does not seem to exist today). Windermere Street on which the shop was situated has a junction with Breck Road about half a mile from the present Breck Road/Priory Road junction.

[sdreid]

All the times for both the phone call and the murder fit tightly with Wallace so do we really need to draw you a picture?

[ColdCaseJury]

All the times for both the phone call and the murder fit tightly with Wallace so do we really need to draw you a picture?

They do not. Unless you mean by "tightly" that there was barely enough time for him to both things; this would be correct.

The Qualtrough sign was about 1km from Wallace's house and not in view of the telephone box. Both Parry and Wallace could have seen it.

Parry's friend, Joseph Marsden, had an customer called R. J. Qualtrough.

[Graham]

Was there ever a written description of how Wallace spoke; if he had any recognisable regional accent; how his diction was? The reason i ask is that Mr Beattie, who took the call, was quite definite that the caller was not William Wallace. Wallace was not a Liverpudlian (he came from Cumbria), so therefore may have had a distinctive accent which stood him out from local Liverpudlians. Was Mr Beattie ever asked to describe the voice over the phone that evening, or asked why he was so certain that the voice was not that of William Wallace?

Graham

[harry]

The police were quite satisfied that there was a time limit of at least 14 minutes ,and a possible maximum 20 minutes,for Wallace to have committed the murder,clean up and leave..Nothing was tested immediately.Wallace would not have been covered in blood necessarily,and it would still be in a fluid state.So my method,which I have tested myself(minus the actual murder,but using a spray of colouring))leaves time.Some preparation could obviously have been performed beforehand.In my army days I had to change from one set of clothing to another.Time allowed FIVE minutes,and Wallace need only to have dressed.
As only the toilet pipes needed examination,the bath or sink not being used,the various flushings afterwards,before the examination,would have disposed of blood residue.
Wallace was a commission agent for the Prudential.Normally each agent would have their own territory.As Pay day in England,in1931,was Friday,it was usual for these commission agents to collect dues on Friday nights or Saturday.A half day off in the week as compensation for working Friday night.
Friday nights collection was paid into the office on Saturday,and Saturday's on Monday.Only small amounts might be collected on weekdays.Parry of all people,another commission agent ,would understand this,and would expext to find from nothing to only a few shillings,at the most,on a Tuesday.Count him out as a robber.
The only other source of money was the electric and gas meters(in those days a regular target),and neither of these were touched.So count out robbery.
Which leaves Wallace.

[ColdCaseJury]

The police were quite satisfied that there was a time limit of at least 14 minutes ,and a possible maximum 20 minutes,for Wallace to have committed the murder,clean up and leave... Wallace would not have been covered in blood necessarily,and it would still be in a fluid state.

The police timings relied on Alan Close who changed his mind. Even the judge told the jury that it was a "reconstructed time". As I explain in my book, the maximum time available to Wallace was most likely ten minutes. This may be sufficient time, of course, depending on your judgement.

The blood was fluid, yes, because it flicked around three walls - the two forming the corner near the violin chair, and the one behind the piano. Is it not implausible to suggest the killer would not have had some blood splatter on him?

The problem in this case is that the police were satisfied it was Wallace from almost the moment they walked into his house. And timings were always a thorny problem. For example, MacFall ORIGINALLY estimated the time of death to be 8pm. This was changed to 6pm in his final report. At the trial he insisted that death occurred BEFORE 6pm. IF time of death was 8pm - a huge IF - we can all agree that Wallace was innocent of the actual killing. I raise this point to show that we cannot assume the police acted with all propriety in this case.

[caz]

Hi All,

I apologise if the following question has been covered, but I recently bought three books on this fascinating case and have not yet got round to reading any of them.

Assuming the telephone message for Wallace included a house number for the address in Menlove Gardens East, was he asked if he tried that house number in Menlove Gardens North, South and West when he found there was no East equivalent? That would seem the obvious thing to do if he thought the message was genuine but might have been misheard or passed on incorrectly. But were any residents at those addresses able to confirm that Wallace had indeed made enquiries there?

So sorry, I've just seen this:

In the accounts I have seen, when Wallace discussed the phone call with the people in the chess club they decided Menlove Gardens East must be somewhere near Menlove Avenue. So Wallace claimed he did not know there was any other Menlove Gardens road, but set out in the direction of Menlove Avenue.

Is it known if he enquired at the same house number in Menlove Avenue? I'd be suspicious if he didn't, and wouldn't the residents there have been able to tell him about Menlove Gardens North, South and West?

Love,

Caz
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[Graham]

Hi Caz,

according to Colin Wilson, Wallace called at No 25 Menlove Gardens West, but whoever he spoke to said he'd never heard of a Mr Qualtrough.

Graham

[caz]

Summing up after doing a bit more homework from this thread (sorry, people, and thanks Graham! ), Wallace ought to have checked at four addresses: 25 Menlove Avenue, 25 Menlove Gardens North, South and West. But did he? So far I have only found the reference to checking at one such address. The map shows they are all close together.

Love,

Caz
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