Total lack of interest mystery

[Graham]

In modern warfare (i.e., since about 1900) serious wars have never really been won or lost by way of surface naval engagements. In both WW1 and WW2, the real naval battle was between submarines and merchant vessels, and the means of detecting and destroying the former. The Battle Of Jutland was a huge affair, granted, with terrible loss of life, but it really proved or disproved very little. Only in 1944, at the Battle Of Leyte Gulf, did the victory of one side (the USA) over the other (Japan) materially assist the end-result of the war. Japan's ability to control its overseas 'empire' was seriously compromised, as what was left of its surface fleet was unable to operate for serious fear of being destroyed almost at will by the Americans. Earlier, at the Battle Of Midway, the US Navy had sowed the seeds of the destruction of Japanese Naval power by effectively destroying its heavy battle fleet, a blow from which it never recovered.

We Brits do like our naval victories and heroes, it has to be said, but I don't think Admirals Jellicoe or Beattie of Jutland 'fame', so-called, has ever really been rated as one of them. It was all down to an attempt by the German High Seas Fleet to break the British blockade of German ports. The Royal Navy were aiming to keep the German fleet out of Britain's shipping lanes. Neither side achieved either aim.

Rule Britannia!

Graham

[Elamarna]

I have to admit that it wasn't until after midnight last night I realized, this weekend was the 100th anniversary of the greatest naval battle in World War I (and the greatest involving "dreadnoughts") the battle of Skaggarak or Jutland. It's normally considered a British victory because the German navy returned with the British in pursuit to their home ports, but the British were the ones who lost more men and capital ships (British casualties were over 8,000 men while German closer to 5,000). The commanders on both sides are not household names now (Jellicoe and Beatty on the British side, Scheer and Von Hipper on the German) possibly because of the mixed results of the battle. If anything, despite German losses of ships, the sinking of three major British Dreadnoughts (Queen Mary, Indefatigable, and Invinceable) in the battle (for a total of almost 3,600 men in those three ships alone) demonstrated that the German warships were better constructed to withstand the punishment of the battle.

My dear Jeff,

I question the statement that the German ships were better constructed.
The main issue appears to have been the British habit of have more bags of cordite(propellent) out of the protective metal cases than needed, this in an effort to speed up firing.
In addition, to obtain the same result of fast firing, the British kept the flash doors on the ammunition hoists open, instead of shutting them.

The result was a hit on a turret, caused the cordite to ignite, the resultant flash travelled down the ammunition route, because the blast doors were not shut, and this in turn ignited more cordite and the main magazines, in the case of Queen Mary 13.5 inch shells and 12 inch for the other two battlecrusiers.

None of the lost ships were battleships, they were the folly called battlecrusiers, the same guns as their big brothers, but much less armour, which allowed the turrets to be penetrated in the first place.

Of the 3, only Queen Mary was modern the others were early battlecruisers.

It must be remembered that the 3 british ships were not sunk due to flooding, they exploded!

There is no doubt that the Germany handling of ammunition was far superior, hence their ships did not exploded although taking far more hits, and many being badly flooded.

In the next ten days it will also be the 100th Anniversary of the sinking of HMS Hampshire off the Orkney Islands by a submarine mine, and the death of most of her company (there were about 18 survivors). On board were a party headed for Archangel in the Russian Empire for a state visit to Tsar Nicholas II's court - this party was lead by the War Minister, Horatio, Lord Kitchener. Kitchener and his staff died in the sinking, and there were later rumors of sabotage by his enemies (both domestic and foreign) connected to his death.

Despite these anniversaries, very little is being said about these events in the current news - no documentaries here about them. Yet last month there were several here about the Easter Rebellion in Dublin a month prior to Jutland.

Jeff

In Britain the remembrance ceremony was screened live on tv yesterday from Orkney, the main British naval base in 1916.

The BBC did a good documentary about why the British ships sunk at the weekend. i suppose you may get that at some stage.

great you brought this up.

steve

[Mayerling]

I have to admit that it wasn't until after midnight last night I realized, this weekend was the 100th anniversary of the greatest naval battle in World War I (and the greatest involving "dreadnoughts") the battle of Skaggarak or Jutland. It's normally considered a British victory because the German navy returned with the British in pursuit to their home ports, but the British were the ones who lost more men and capital ships (British casualties were over 8,000 men while German closer to 5,000). The commanders on both sides are not household names now (Jellicoe and Beatty on the British side, Scheer and Von Hipper on the German) possibly because of the mixed results of the battle. If anything, despite German losses of ships, the sinking of three major British Dreadnoughts (Queen Mary, Indefatigable, and Invinceable) in the battle (for a total of almost 3,600 men in those three ships alone) demonstrated that the German warships were better constructed to withstand the punishment of the battle.

In the next ten days it will also be the 100th Anniversary of the sinking of HMS Hampshire off the Orkney Islands by a submarine mine, and the death of most of her company (there were about 18 survivors). On board were a party headed for Archangel in the Russian Empire for a state visit to Tsar Nicholas II's court - this party was lead by the War Minister, Horatio, Lord Kitchener. Kitchener and his staff died in the sinking, and there were later rumors of sabotage by his enemies (both domestic and foreign) connected to his death.

Despite these anniversaries, very little is being said about these events in the current news - no documentaries here about them. Yet last month there were several here about the Easter Rebellion in Dublin a month prior to Jutland.

Jeff