Mort à Claybury

[Pontius2000]

'Fraid not, Pontius.

Opinion is divided as to whether or not the old man in the picture was the real George Hutchinson (at least by those who frequent Hutchinson discussions on internet message boards), but it's only a significant minority of commentators who believe that the identity has been "well established". I don't believe the man in the picture had anything to do with the events of 1888.

Hi Ruby,

It's an intriguing possibility at the very least. The only potential fly in the ointment concerns the issue of height. The medical examiners from Stone Asylum listed his height at 6"7', which would tend to rule him out for the "not tall" man in the wideawake.

All the best,
Ben

you're saying it's a small minority that agree the man in the photo is the witness Hutchinson, or a small minority that believe the identity of the witness was actually George Hutchinson? because if it's the later, I totally disagree.

the person who signed "George Hutchinson" to the witness statement in 1888 was married under the name George Hutchinson in 1900. and there's a thread at the top of this page that's shows the same person signed the name "George Hutchinson" in the 1911 census. I think it's a stretch to say that the person who came forward as a witness was NOT George Hutchinson. would be much more believable if someone said that FLEMING was the alias of Hutchinson, and not the other way around. but I don't even think that's very believable since there were surely people living in Miller's Court who knew both Hutchinson and Fleming.

[DVV]

Further, of course, the Miller's-court crowd would need some reason to link GH's story with Fleming, even if he used that name. It has troubled me for some time that GH and JF are equally slippery; the latter, for example, doesn't seem to have cropped up on the police radar at all, when one should really consider him (a former partner, still involved to some degree, reported to have 'ill-used' her).

Also, if (if) we take our Fleming to be the son of Henrietta and Richard, he has a rather interesting pre-Mary and post-Mary life. The familial living conditions were impossibly cramped (don't ask--I'm the idiot who went and viewed a house for sale in Cypress Street); the father had a history of mental illness and ended his life in the poor house. There are hints Joe himself had a few brushes with the law in his youth. Certain precursor type offences occurred on his stamping ground. Post Mary, he seems to have disappeared, surfacing again as James Evans, otherwise Joseph Fleming, delusional and paranoid at the City of London Asylum at Stone House, where he was admitted in 1892. Transferred as incurable to Claybury and, as per David's quatrain, died there. All this, of course, is if you accept this Fleming as ours.

Anyhow, sorry, Rubyretro, you probably know at least these basics, but I think that, for me, at least, Fleming's practice of using pseudonyms, and his disappearance, and his involvement with Mary, stated place of abode and so forth, could potentially qualify him as a candidate for Hutch.

Hi Claire

agreed, agreed, agreed !

Amitiés

[claire]

Further, of course, the Miller's-court crowd would need some reason to link GH's story with Fleming, even if he used that name. It has troubled me for some time that GH and JF are equally slippery; the latter, for example, doesn't seem to have cropped up on the police radar at all, when one should really consider him (a former partner, still involved to some degree, reported to have 'ill-used' her).

Also, if (if) we take our Fleming to be the son of Henrietta and Richard, he has a rather interesting pre-Mary and post-Mary life. The familial living conditions were impossibly cramped (don't ask--I'm the idiot who went and viewed a house for sale in Cypress Street); the father had a history of mental illness and ended his life in the poor house. There are hints Joe himself had a few brushes with the law in his youth. Certain precursor type offences occurred on his stamping ground. Post Mary, he seems to have disappeared, surfacing again as James Evans, otherwise Joseph Fleming, delusional and paranoid at the City of London Asylum at Stone House, where he was admitted in 1892. Transferred as incurable to Claybury and, as per David's quatrain, died there. All this, of course, is if you accept this Fleming as ours.

Anyhow, sorry, Rubyretro, you probably know at least these basics, but I think that, for me, at least, Fleming's practice of using pseudonyms, and his disappearance, and his involvement with Mary, stated place of abode and so forth, could potentially qualify him as a candidate for Hutch.

[DVV]

To make it clearer : does Toppy's portrait look like a pic taken in the 20's or 30's ?
Certainly not in my opinion (I remember Sam Flynn's comments about it and still agree with them).

Amitiés
David

edit : héhé ! thanks Ben !

[Ben]

Kind of you to say so, David.

Good to see you back here.

[Ben]

'Fraid not, Pontius.

Opinion is divided as to whether or not the old man in the picture was the real George Hutchinson (at least by those who frequent Hutchinson discussions on internet message boards), but it's only a significant minority of commentators who believe that the identity has been "well established". I don't believe the man in the picture had anything to do with the events of 1888.

Hi Ruby,

It's an intriguing possibility at the very least. The only potential fly in the ointment concerns the issue of height. The medical examiners from Stone Asylum listed his height at 6"7', which would tend to rule him out for the "not tall" man in the wideawake.

All the best,
Ben

[DVV]

'George Hutchinson' as an alias? I'm pretty sure that the existence of George Hutchinson has been well established and I believe a picture of him (as an older man) has even been posted on this site.

Oh yes.
For sure, Toppy's pic is a perfect illustration of Reg's tale.

Amitiés
David

[DVV]

Thanks Ben, you're right (and your English is excellent) !

[Pontius2000]

'George Hutchinson' as an alias? I'm pretty sure that the existence of George Hutchinson has been well established and I believe a picture of him (as an older man) has even been posted on this site.

[Rubyretro]

Fascinating, Ben ..I know nearly nothing about Fleming, except that he was a plasterer whom Mary had lived with, that he continued to see her and she was said to be 'fond of him'.

So what do YOU think ? COULD they be the same person in your opinion ?

[Ben]

Hi Ruby,

Fleming had only moved into the parish of Whitechapel (and presumably the Victoria Home) in September 1888, and was therefore unlikely to have been very well known there. If he was using an alias at this stage (as he would do later), it is even less likely that either the name or persona of Joseph Fleming was connected with the Victoria Home in the minds of the Miller's Court bunch, none of whom appeared to have known him by sight.

All the best,
Ben

[Rubyretro]

Because I don't think there were two diffenrent guys dossing in the VH who would both have known Mary for 3 years and used to give her money at times.

But surely Hutch would never have come forward as a witness with a bunch of lies if he had once lived with Mary ? He would have at least told the Police about that -because they would be bound to find it out. I would imagine that Joe Barnett knew who Flemming was, at least by sight, as would other men at the Victoria Home.

I think that it IS possible that 'George Hutchinson' was an 'alias' though -but that's for another reason. I got carried away thinking that Hutch might have been in the army at one point, because the silent killing MO linked with the 'ex-groom' bit and 'military appearence' might fit with someone having done a term in the Army. I thought that I would try and 'find' Hutch -but the first bit of preliminary research made me realise that it was very common, and accepted, to enlist under a false name. So Hutch could easily have adopted an 'alias' that way -but some years before 1888.

It would be fascinating to know if Hutch knew Flemming though (and/or Barnett's brother) , and had gotten some info on her that way..maybe that's how he knew that Barnett had moved out ?

[DVV]

Why do you think that Flemming and Hutch are one and the same ?

Because I don't think there were two diffenrent guys dossing in the VH who would both have known Mary for 3 years and used to give her money at times.

[Rubyretro]

Why do you think that Flemming and Hutch are one and the same ?

[DVV]

Hello David,

Good to see you back.

Wish I could read this though.

I'm sure you can !

Thanks mate
David