Ripperologist 129: December 2012

[Beowulf]

Hi Beowulf

You might be interested to know that in Ripperologist 130, shortly to appear, we are running an article by Scott Nelson on "David Cohen: Talking Points of a Storyline" which gets into the whole David Cohen - Aaron Kosminski question.

Best regards

Chris George

Interested? Oh, boy AM I!

[ChrisGeorge]

Cannot believe it.

I come on here, specifically because I have been so busy lately I have been trying to get a quiet moment to read Ripperologist 129, have just not had a moment to myself. Have had a tantalizing peek at it, saw the article about Rethinking Cohen and Kosminski.

Tantalizing because at some point in the past I saw some information about Cohen and thought, as many have, oh hey, now THAT guy...and then of course the new information about Kosminski and his possible/probable address in the Berner street region. Really good stuff, here. But, haven't had a chance to really concentrate and look at it, smartly, if you know what I mean.

However, I was so surprised to see several of you, even, as one says, is only a 'limey' discussing 'jack' and 'george', because just before Christmas my husband and I had just so similiar a discussion. He had a bottle of Irish Whiskey, Bushmills. I told him I used to occasionally drink George Dickel, he wanted to know how it compared to Jack Daniels, so he went out and bought a bottle of Dickel, Old Number 12, to be exact.

Well, hows that for statistics? The two are not related, yet if you read 150 years from now that I was a forum member, and this forum had such a discussion around Christmastime, and I bought the said named whisky, well, you would think I'd HAVE to have gone here and read this, and been duly influenced. But I hadn't. Talk about weird. Synchronicity?

Very hard to know for sure about stats and facts, what is real and what is not, for real. It's what IS so frustrating when one really wants to know who Jack is/was.

For the record, I believe in the canonical five. I base it on the fact that it's a small section of London, and the murders being throat cuttings were not that common. The attacks of the abdomen, female parts, not common. Just my gut feeling. Oops. Shouldn't have put it THAT way...

Hi Beowulf

You might be interested to know that in Ripperologist 130, shortly to appear, we are running an article by Scott Nelson on "David Cohen: Talking Points of a Storyline" which gets into the whole David Cohen - Aaron Kosminski question.

Best regards

Chris George

[Bridewell]

To Bridewell,

My ultimate point is that if "ambi's" make up around 1% of any given population then they are very rare. Since we have opinion within the "Group"...sorry Colin,...that there may be both left handed and right handed killers, I would suggest it is far more likely that they were different people that that they were 1 person equally adept from both sides. Statistically speaking.

All the best BW

Hi, Michael,

I agree it's far more likely. My point was simply that an ambidextrous killer could not be discounted, not that his existence was likely.

Best Wishes.

[Hunter]

LOL...

Outstanding

Oh, by the way, Old No. 12 is 90 proof, not 100 as I stated back on New Years. Still, it is much better than the more commonly known Jack Daniels... as far as Tennessee sour mash goes. Jack is only aged 4 years and George is aged 12. But Jack evidently is marketed better outside of Tennessee.

[Beowulf]

Cannot believe it.

I come on here, specifically because I have been so busy lately I have been trying to get a quiet moment to read Ripperologist 129, have just not had a moment to myself. Have had a tantalizing peek at it, saw the article about Rethinking Cohen and Kosminski.

Tantalizing because at some point in the past I saw some information about Cohen and thought, as many have, oh hey, now THAT guy...and then of course the new information about Kosminski and his possible/probable address in the Berner street region. Really good stuff, here. But, haven't had a chance to really concentrate and look at it, smartly, if you know what I mean.

However, I was so surprised to see several of you, even, as one says, is only a 'limey' discussing 'jack' and 'george', because just before Christmas my husband and I had just so similiar a discussion. He had a bottle of Irish Whiskey, Bushmills. I told him I used to occasionally drink George Dickel, he wanted to know how it compared to Jack Daniels, so he went out and bought a bottle of Dickel, Old Number 12, to be exact.

Well, hows that for statistics? The two are not related, yet if you read 150 years from now that I was a forum member, and this forum had such a discussion around Christmastime, and I bought the said named whisky, well, you would think I'd HAVE to have gone here and read this, and been duly influenced. But I hadn't. Talk about weird. Synchronicity?

Very hard to know for sure about stats and facts, what is real and what is not, for real. It's what IS so frustrating when one really wants to know who Jack is/was.

For the record, I believe in the canonical five. I base it on the fact that it's a small section of London, and the murders being throat cuttings were not that common. The attacks of the abdomen, female parts, not common. Just my gut feeling. Oops. Shouldn't have put it THAT way...

[Michael W Richards]

To Colin,

I believe if I took Lynns advice and phrased the question just as I posited, you might find a glitch in your conclusions. Just re-reading over old threads here tells me this.

I have read your analysis with great interest over the years and am pleased to have access to it while determining whats what here, but the obvious point that has been missed in all of this is precedent.

If a killing takes place that is unusual, and has rather unique aspects to it, it sets a precedent. Like Pollys killing. The specifics of that precedent were publicly acknowledged in every paper and magazine of the period. Therefore, if a second murder occurs with similar characteristics, and perhaps a 3rd and 4th, maybe even a 5th....then one must consider the influence the initial precedent may have had on subsequent murderers. A stand out example in these cases could be the stomach flaps cut from Annie, then later from Mary.

You say slit throats were rare statistically at that time, (although Ive found many, many knife attacks from 1880-1888 myself in the Old Bailey records), ok.....but when a precedent like Polly happened it introduced to any future murderers a model to replicate.

Therefore, you may end up with any number of individuals who had the impetus or inclination to commit an act of murder killing in a way that they had introduced to them, some perhaps as a means to pin their acts on someone else.

All the best

[Michael W Richards]

To Bridewell,

My ultimate point is that if "ambi's" make up around 1% of any given population then they are very rare. Since we have opinion within the "Group"...sorry Colin,...that there may be both left handed and right handed killers, I would suggest it is far more likely that they were different people that that they were 1 person equally adept from both sides. Statistically speaking.

All the best BW

[Michael W Richards]

...50% abv for George Dickel?

Well I'm only a limey and certainly know Jack better than George, but thought the mightiest of the Dickel range was "Old No 12", a 90 proofer that comes out close to 45% ABV...(abv is approx half the proof measure isn't it? ...unless there's something I'm missing)...

I've seen these guys raving about Bacardi 151 or worse still Everclear 190 (95% abv!)...if I wanted to toast my brain and rot my teeth in one quiet evening then, maybe, but I think I'll stick to beer (4 or 5%) or good old scotch (40%)!

All the best

Dave

I have drunk both 151 and Everclear Dave, youre missing nothing.

A mellow Single malt, 12 years or more for this fellow.

Happy New Year.

All the best

[Cogidubnus]

Perhaps I know Jack but...

...50% abv for George Dickel?

Well I'm only a limey and certainly know Jack better than George, but thought the mightiest of the Dickel range was "Old No 12", a 90 proofer that comes out close to 45% ABV...(abv is approx half the proof measure isn't it? ...unless there's something I'm missing)...

I've seen these guys raving about Bacardi 151 or worse still Everclear 190 (95% abv!)...if I wanted to toast my brain and rot my teeth in one quiet evening then, maybe, but I think I'll stick to beer (4 or 5%) or good old scotch (40%)!

All the best

Dave

PS This thread's wandered a bit hasn't it...sorry!

[Bridewell]

Percentages

Bridewell, are you aware what percentage within a given group can be considered truly ambidextrous? Around 1%.

Okay. I accept the 1%. Ball-park figures follow. The population of Greater London was around 6,000,000 at the time. The adult male population therefore around 2,000,000, so 1% means that about 20,000 men in London were truly ambidextrous. Of those around 300 (give or take) lived in Whitechapel.

If the killer actually was an "ambi", testing each suspect for their ability to use either hand equally effectively might have been a great Ripper litmus test.

It might, although I'm not sure how that could be tested in practise.

The odds are though that none of the 5 women killed were killed by someone within that small population segment.

I don't actually see how odds come into it when we're only looking at one individual. If the killer was ambidextrous - which he may have been - he could have killed with either hand.

Before this becomes a lengthy argument, I'm not claiming that the killer was ambidextrous; I'm simply stating, as posted earlier, that a right-handed killer and a left-handed killer are not necessarily two different people. There is always the possibility, however slight, that the killer was equally skilled with both hands. Possibility - nothing more.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Colin Roberts]

And besides, Mike, … Emma Smith, Catherine Mylett, and the Pinchin Street Torso have little impact on my calculations.

The ones that have the most impact are those that are closest to 50%: i.e. Martha Tabram and Elizabeth Stride.

It should be obvious that I am posting piecemeal between musings, as I tend to other New Year's Day affairs. Apologies!

---

These figures are basically telling us what we already knew:

That there is no 'Canon': Not because of the Smiths, Myletts, and Torsos that must be taken into account; but because of the Tabrams, Strides, McKenzies, Kellys, and Coleses that are the truly controversial victims.

Martha Tabram is the single most influential factor in there not being a 'Canon'; Elizabeth Stride is the next most influential … so on, and so on.

[Colin Roberts]

The means, by which we would compute the percentage of respondents that actually voted for the so-called 'Canonic-Five', and just the so-called 'Canonic-Five' would be to multiply through each of the following figures:

- Not Smith: 97%
- Not Tabram: 55%
- Nichols: 95%
- Chapman: 98%
- Stride: 81%
- Eddowes: 95%
- Kelly: 86%
- Not Mylett: 95%
- Not McKenzie: 82%
- Not Pinchin Torso: 97%
- Not Coles: 86%

= 'Canonic-Five' Only: 21.36%

You've got to bear in mind, Mike, that what's being factored in the cases of Smith, Mylett, and the Torso is:

- Not Smith: 97%
- Not Mylett: 95%
- Not Pinchin Torso: 97%

These factors are each close to 100% and are therefore supportive of a relatively high calculation.

The three smallest factors, as seen above, are:

- Not Tabram: 55%
- Stride: 81%
- Not McKenzie: 82%

These factors are the most detrimental to the prospect of a relatively high calculation.

[Colin Roberts]

I would view Stan Reid and Rob Clack as each being a "serious Ripperologist", Mike.

And besides, Mike, … Emma Smith, Catherine Mylett, and the Pinchin Street Torso have little impact on my calculations.

The ones that have the most impact are those that are closest to 50%: i.e. Martha Tabram and Elizabeth Stride.

[Colin Roberts]

I would view Stan Reid and Rob Clack as each being a "serious Ripperologist", Mike.

... you have targets ranging from 46 to 26, killings both indoors and outdoors, ...

I have provided reliable statistics that show just how uncommon cut-throat murders were throughout England, during the 1880's/1890's. Do I need to post them again?

---

The numbers speak for themselves, Mike, even though they are generalizations of the multitude of figures that we have actually seen.

The bottom line:

I believe we can rest assured that no more than one fourth of 'Ripper' students adhere to the notion that 'Jack the Ripper' killed the so-called 'Canonic-Five', and just the so-called 'Canonic-Five'.

I believe we can rest assured that no more than two thirds of 'Ripper' students adhere to the notion that 'Jack the Ripper' killed the so-called 'Canonic-Five', regardless of whether he also killed one or more of the non-'Canonic' victims.

There is no 'Canon'!

[Colin Roberts]

I almost forgot!

William Faulkner said of Sewanee in The Sound and the Fury: "at the Naval Academy they teach you how to swim at night by throwing you in the water when you don't know how to swim, but at Sewanee they don't know what water is." (or words very similar thereto)

I think there used to be a Dickel advertisement that proclaimed: "Water's for bathin'. Dickel's for drinkin'."

Sewanee is an Episcopal School, and we used to say that wherever there are four Episcopalians, there's always a fifth.