Ripperologist 111

[Jonathan H]

Absolutely right!

What is Ostrog doing on this list when he is not even a murderer, except I suppose when he tried to dangerously throw himself away attacked to a cop.

And right again, Macnaghten surely knew this -- or he was utterly incompetent.

Or ruthless and cunning.

I think poor, hapless Ostrog is there because his un-named identity [not his name] would sound good read out in Parliament, if the Home Sec. Asquith had requested the Report over the Cutbush claims -- which in the end he did not.

A Russian doctor -- bloody swine!

I think also that Mac was using this straw man as a stand-in for the real dodgy, foreign medico 'thief': Dr Tumblety. You could not mention him directly as that would be too dangerous.

An honest 1894 Report by Mac would have said Cutbush is no way the fiend, and whilst there is no shadow of proof against the following trio they are still a better bet than this cop's relative: the 'suicided' Dr. Tumblety, the sailor Sadler whom we believed certainly killed Frances Coles, and another sailor Grainger -- who was identified by our best witness Joseph Lawende.

Since the cessation of the Ripper hunt we came across two other suspects who have split the leadership of CID down the middle, but neither were known at the time of the investigation -- and when we did learn of their families' terrible fears one was dead and the other declared mad: M J Druitt and a Kosminski [I can't recall his first name].

[DVV]

Ostrog was just a thief, not a rapist, not a killer, let alone a serial killer.
There is no way Macnaghten would have known anything pointing to Ostrog as a possible Whitechapel murderer.
Ostrog is clearly a non-starter, and has ever been.

Amitiés,
David

[Tom_Wescott]

From what we know of Ostrog its a strange inclusion. I have to suggest the police had more (alleged) suspiscions about his sexual history, or perhaps he was confused with another criminal who had proven history of sex crimes.

Hi Jason,

I posted somewhere recently my thoughts that Ostrog might have been confused with another suspect, Charles Le Grand. Both were thieves, both used the alias 'Grant', but Le Grand was a far more violent, evil character, who had a collection of knives, abused prostitutes, etc. Both Ostrog and Le Grand were wrongly called Belgians at times. Because my knowledge on Ostrog isn't too keen, I plan on setting some time aside to do a study of this, so right now what I'm posting is an idea, no more, no less.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[jason_c]

Hi Jason,

but then how could a man whose whereabouts in 1888 were unknown became a prime suspect in such an important case ?

It tells a lot, doesn't it ?

Amitiés,
David

Whatever the reason he was a suspect.

From what we know of Ostrog its a strange inclusion. I have to suggest the police had more (alleged) suspiscions about his sexual history, or perhaps he was confused with another criminal who had proven history of sex crimes.

He was missing during 1888. That part Macnaghten did get correct. He either looked at the JtR suspects file or looked at Ostrogs file outwith the Ripper investigation.

[DVV]

Hi Jason,

but then how could a man whose whereabouts in 1888 were unknown became a prime suspect in such an important case ?

It tells a lot, doesn't it ?

Amitiés,
David

[jason_c]

You obviously underestimate the brutality and cold-bloodedness of men who walk dogs without muzzles.



Why wouldn't he know that? But many of the other details he provides are totally wrong. An investigation would have turned up the fact that he was in Paris, but there was no investigation.


Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

This was a time before interpol. The flow of information was much more limited than today. All Ostrog had to do was keep quiet about his stint in prison. Unless the British police had some knowledge of his contintental visit they had no reason to contact the French authorities. Ostrog could have been living on the moon as far as the police knew.

Unless Macnaghten personally tried to find Ostrog during the Autumn of 1888(which is a non starter) he must have read somewhere that Ostrog could not be found during this period.

[Tom_Wescott]

Not bad compared to someone like Kosminski with no crime against his name that has ever come to light.

You obviously underestimate the brutality and cold-bloodedness of men who walk dogs without muzzles.

How did Macnaghten know that Ostrog was missing during the Autumn of 1888?

Why wouldn't he know that? But many of the other details he provides are totally wrong. An investigation would have turned up the fact that he was in Paris, but there was no investigation.


Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Stewart P Evans]

Anderson

Anderson was fixated on the whole Irish problem and Parnell. In 1906 he was still trying to implicate Parnell in connivance or knowledge of the Phoenix Park murders. In 1910 he was still at it and regurgitating the Ripper case to boot.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats,

You make good points and can obviously argue Anderson. But surely, even after all that, you must concede that Kosminski is still a better suspect than Klosowski.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Well if there if there was a jot of evidence Tom,I would certainly concede that.But there isnt,not from his thirty year stay in asylums,not from a single police officer,not from anyone anywhere except Anderson.
Klosowski was there in Whitechapel in 1888 ,was executed for murdering three women in succession and some descriptions of height,colouring, build match witness sightings .Not bad compared to someone like Kosminski with no crime against his name that has ever come to light.
Best
Norma

[jason_c]

Hi Trevor,

That was a very good post, and it seems we generally agree on the memoranda. However, it doesn't seem that ANY of Macnaghten's information came from the files, but from his own mind. None of the suspects had apparently been investigated (certainly not Ostrog or Druitt), and were offered up because their alleged guilt would cause no fall out against the government or crown and they were not in a position to defend themselves. Macnaghten himself says there were 'several' suspects, and he's merely offering up the cases of these three. Slowly but surely, we're finding the ones he couldn't mention for purposes of libel and/or controversy.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

How did Macnaghten know that Ostrog was missing during the Autumn of 1888?

He obviously had no idea of Ostrog being imprisoned at the time. It turns out of course that Macnaghten was correct, Ostrog was indeed missing during the Whitechapel murders. A likely explanation is that he looked at the files.

Ostrog's prison stint is often used to criticize the memorandum. In my opinion its one of the parts of the memorandum that suggests MM gives us some correct information in his memo.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Nats,

You make good points and can obviously argue Anderson. But surely, even after all that, you must concede that Kosminski is still a better suspect than Klosowski.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[robhouse]

"Rob,you can try to rubbish Smith as much as you want.."

I don't think I have ever rubbished Smith in my entire life. In fact I can't recall a single post in which I mentioned him much at all.. although it is possible. From what I have read of Smith's memoirs, I thought they were very funny and interesting.

"Answer those questions for me first and then produse one single jot of evidence to support Anderson"s claim."

I am sure I have responded to this in fact several times. In my opinion, it is possible that there were only a select few at the MET who ever knew much of anything about Kozminski. As I have pointed out, it is possible that Swanson's note "known to head officers CID" quite possibly refers to Kozminski's identification, and the inquiries surrounding him... not the identity of the writer of the Dear Boss letter as is commonly assumed. If this is true, I do not see why Abberline etc should have known about Kozminski at all. The inquiries into him as a suspect were very possibly kept secret as much as possible, for the reasons I have said before.

Your post largely displays what I said before. Specifically, that you avoid responding to my posts, which are rather specific... instead you always turn to your mantra of Anderson was bad, Smith, Abberline etc. I was critiquing some things that you said (and which you keep repeating over and over), and which are demonstrably wrong. I do not of course think that will keep you from continuing to post them as you have been doing.

Rob

[Natalie Severn]

Natalie,

It seems every time I respond to something you said, very specifically and directly, you do not respond at all to what I am saying, but instead start ranting about how irresponsible anderson was and how Kozminski is such a poor creature, to be pitied etc. The fact is, neither you nor I know what the police knew about Aaron Kozminski, despite your repeated assertions that there was not "A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE" and that Anderson came to the conclusion he did out of some prejudice, or theory regarding Jews. There is absolutely nothing to support such a claim... it is merely speculation on your part, and on the part of others who have argued the same. Anderson himself said that his words had been misinterpreted. You are assuming that "his people" referred to the Jews in general, when a much better explanation is that "his people" referred to Kozminski's family, who perhaps refused to cooperate with the police. Again, we do not know why Anderson believed Kozminski was the Ripper. So do not pretend that you know. No one does.

Rob

Lets put it another way.I have read an immense amount about Anderson,including his own 1910 memoirs,which I have had on loan from the library several times.I have also read several of his "Second Coming of Christ" tracks as well as several books which refer in some depth to his role as a spymaster.I have seen letters produced by Stewart Evans from Robert Anderson to various people.
The truth is that I perceive him in a totally different way from yourself.I mistrust him completely.I believe barely anything he has to say about anything to do with his role as a spymaster or anything very much he has to say about Jack the Ripper.Neither did and do a number of other people.The truth is that your knowledge of political history is weak Rob.You need to situate Robert Anderson in the context of his times.His entire life was devoted to suppressing the Irish Struggle for National Independence and he used British Informers to do so.He may have been right.But personally ,I rather think the tide of history was against him, since Ireland was a colony of the British Empire and most colonial struggles for Independence have been lost,sooner or later,for better or worse.
Anyway,this was the passion that governed his every move,his life"s work if you like, and, like it or not,this is the backdrop to his performance regarding the Ripper Investigation.Robert Anderson had much bigger fish to fry than Jack the Ripper who barely surfaced on his radar.
With this in mind, and given everything else that was said by his senior colleagues that were there at the time viz Smith and Macnaghten but also Abberline who worked closely on the case,and kept in touch long afterwards it is pretty evident to me that Anderson did not know.
He simply played the game with the publishers of his autobiography and the editor of Blackwoods;he inserted a few paragraphs about himself "knowing all along who the ripper was" [with a nod and a wink to his publishers] but also to the astonishment and fury of the Chief Commissioner of the City of London Police,Henry Smith who rubbished the idea completely,and as good as called him a liar and a racist.
Rob,you can try to rubbish Smith as much as you want but that does not answer the question as to why Abberline pooh poohed it all,Smith rejected it outright,in no uncertain terms twenty years after the eventsand Macnaghten favoured Druitt.
Answer those questions for me first and then produse one single jot of evidence to support Anderson"s claim.
Then I will be prepared to take the Kosminski suspect seriously.
Cheers

[DVV]

Aaron Kosminski -- Arguably the best suspect

I tried in a recent article in 'Ripperologist' called 'Safely Caged' to argue that Kosminski remains one of three very strong suspects, argubaly the strongest.

Hi Jonathan,

your article is about police opinions/confusions etc about Kosminski. Well and good, but I fail to see any new evidence of Kosminski's guilt.

Living in Whitechapel, he is a better suspect than Druitt and Ostrog.
That's all.

Amitiés,
David

[Trevor Marriott]

It is a mystery, probably forever.

As in, Anderson implied the house-to-search revealed his identity, or that of the people who were harbouring him, who also produced the treacherous witness.

Macnaghten implies that the Kosminski family suspected the worst.

But how did the information get from the family to Macnaghten/Anderson?

Moreover why would they breathe a word of it to anybody once Aaron was 'safely caged'?

On the other hand secrets and families can leak like sieves especially if they have rivals, enemies, and so on.


Somehow it bypassed the lower-echelon police like Abberline, Reid, and the rest, and was seemingly unknown to the medical staff at Colney Hatch.

Ripper obsessive Macnaghten went through every Ripper letter, so why not the house to house list too?

In 1891 he found that one of the names on that list was in Colney Hatch and perhaps interviewed a family member and made a mental note of their worst fears -- but not the suspect's first name.

Remember, this is a cop who wants to be action man and hands-on; meeting harlots in Whitechapel, having Adolf Beck round for tea after he was exonerated, and so on.

There are more holes in this Kosminski saga than a cullender.

It wasnt until 1889 he was sent to the asylum. If Coles was a Ripper victim that rules him out in any event. As it does with Druitt. I notice Macnaghten mentions the Coles and Mckenzie murders in his memo. If he was so sure about Kosminski why would he go to great lengths to mention those murders if he knew they were not connected to the Ripper, after all the memo was all about the Ripper investigation. Why did he just not say they could not be connected to the Ripper.

As i have said before all this rubbish about him saying "From what he knew" etc,is not worth the paper its written on in the light of all the other "opinions" on various suspects given by other officers in later years.

Why do people want to keep resurrecting issues about some of these so called suspects when nothing new has been forthcoming. All the arguments and issues surrounding these have been done to death.

Personally I would erase Kosminski,Cutbush and some of the others totally from the list of suspects because in reality there is not a scrap of evidence against any of them