About JtR 21st Century Investigation

[Jeff Leahy]

Thanks for clarifying that Alan,

The Emma Jackson murder is an interesting case in itself though, and has a bit in common with the Whitechapel murders story wise if nothing else. A polish man suspected and arrested, a drowned man found floating in St Katherine's dock suspected, numerous confessions from wandering drunks and lunatics, eye photography (which was considered by experts would be ineffective even in 1863!), partition walls, locked doors, thimbles, body repositioned on the bed after the throat was cut....motiveless.

Just back threading as i have an exciting night of redigitizing anbd handbreaking ahead of me...

However I always find it curious why everyone assumes early ripper attacks would have necessarily been Knife related?

Yes its possible, but as has been mentioned Milwood's attack was more like those committed by Cutbush...and Tabram-Chapman show signs of strangulation?

Is it not also possible that early Ripper attacks may have involved Strangulation or stabs to the body?

Pirate

[Mike Covell]

Just picked up a copy of "21st Century Investigation" from the local bargain book store. It is the hardback, first edition, with dustjacket, RRP £17.99, book stores price, £2.99!!

It can sit amongst my other editions!

[frogg moody]

Hi All,
I would just like to thank everyone who came to the Whitechapel Society/Docklands presentation yesterday. Those who were unable to make it missed a fantastic presentation/book launch by Trevor Marriott. A full review of Trevor's talk will appear in the next Whitechapel Journal which you can obtain by Joining our Society - www.whitechapelsociety.com for details.

Frogg

THE WHITECHAPEL SOCIETY. "LONDON'S PREMIER SOCIETY FOR THE STUDY OF JACK THE RIPPER & VICTORIAN/EDWARDIAN SOCIAL HISTORY"

www.whitechapelsociety.com

[John Bennett]

It was a good presentation, I thought, whether you agree with the theory or not. Like all suspect theories, it certainly wasn't watertight by anybody's standards.

What I found interesting (although somewhat unexpected) was the autopsy stuff, as it showed how incredibly concealed a kidney is. If you think that Eddowes killer had about 5 minutes to find it and get it out, as well as doing all the other things, in very dark conditions... well, it's just amazing.

That said, the young lady taking photographs of Trevor in action was not impressed by the imagery. Every time she came back into the room to take more naps you could see her cheeks puffing out like she was about to hurl.
Poor love!!

JB

[Monty]

Philip,

Im sure Trevor is a top notch guy, and my limited contact with him on the boards support the idea of a poliete man who takes critcism positively.

However, his interpretation of evidence and, what I percieve as, lack of witness knowledge concerns me. Thats bread n butter stuff and that reflects. He is no SPE, then again who is?

Monty

[George Hutchinson]

Ah, Coral - Happy Birthday + 1. I completely forgot and no one reminded me! I would have said at the time if I'd known!

Dan - you may well be right. It might be that I've heard such strong (and probably correct) objections to some of Trevor's ideas that I presumed some people thought his ideas as a whole not worthy of consideration. I think a lot of what Trevor says isn't to be taken on board as the-way-it-really-is, but as an alternative possibility.

By the way, Dan, still awaiting a reply to the last e-mail I sent you about a week ago!

PHILIP

[Dan Norder]

However, I do think it wrong to dismiss everything he says out of hand because of the insecurity of some of his theories.

I've not seen anyone do that -- well, other than AP Wolf, and he basically dismisses everyone who has written about the case except for himself.

[Celesta]

Thanks for these reviews, Phil and Coral. It does sound like the new book is going to be pretty interesting. I'm looking forward to reading it.

Happy birthday, Coral.

[m_w_r]

Hi Coral -

Thanks to you and the committee for organising the presentation. Suspect-theory is not really my thing ... but I found Trevor's position interesting nonetheless.

I hope you had a good birthday.

Mark

[coral]

Hi Philip

I totally agree with you.

It was a great presentation.

I liked the fact that Trevor, as always, takes critism, and other thoughts on board and doesn't seem to be offended by them.

Many thanks to all of you who turned up to celebrate my birthday - which is still on-going!

Coral

[George Hutchinson]

Hi. I was given the task of introducing Trevor at the WS1888 talks at the Museum In Docklands this afternoon, which was fairly well attended (about 50 people, many of whom I'd never seen before).

Trevor was, as usual, a fine speaker. Very polished, professional and confident and easy to listen to. Again, however, he did come out with a lot of stuff that had a lot of people grumbling and shaking their heads but he did also - like last time - come up with some things that really made you think.

He went through a whole long list of murders all over the place - not just the UK but Germany and the US as well, going right up until 1894. I don't feel particularly convinced by this but I've never thought his chosen suspect was worthy of instant dismissal like some of them clearly are.

He pointed out, as SPE as often said, that all the murder spots are indeed very close to major roads so the view that many people (including me) have that he was a local or very familiar with the layout, may not be as accurate as we assume.

The new images he has found are not antiquated. It's a series of genuine autopsy shots that were taken by arrangement, recently, to show the difficulty of obtaining body parts. This was quite unexpected in the presentation and some people were turning away at the explicit full colour nature of some of the images on the screen. Not for the squeamish.

Trevor's view is that the body parts were taken away not at the murder scene but later. Many will disagree with this. One thing that he DID show, however, to almost without a shadow of doubt, is that identification of body parts within the body cavity is indeed very difficult and that access is not in the least simplistic. He also showed that the kidney is, in fact, one of the hardest body parts of all to get to.

I think that some of what Trevor says is completely wrong and he is big enough to accept that people may think that and has no problem with it. However, I do think it wrong to dismiss everything he says out of hand because of the insecurity of some of his theories. At the very least, a lot of his work gives you real cause to think and you can't say he doesn't do his homework!

PHILIP

[Dan Norder]

This will come as no surprise, Mr Marriott seems to make a habit of making amazing discoveries that everyone already knew about.

Yeah, based upon the murders in question, apparently so. That's why I am especially interested in seeing what the new images he supposedly discovered are... if they're ones I discovered and told him about and he's now taking credit for them I'll be more than a little annoyed.

I got the first edition. Did I miss anything other than the naming of Carl Feigenbaum?

Not really, just lots of arguments about Feigenbaum.

[Rob Clack]

Debs drew my attention to the Emma Jackson murder quite a while back when she mentioned to me a series of articles called 'Unavenged Murders' which ran in The Illustrated Police News' (the Emma Jackson one was 24 November 1888) and she mentioned this on the pre-crash boards. And as Debs has mentioned the Emma Jackson murder appeared in the recent book "Unsolved Murders in Victorian and Edwardian London" By Jonathan Oates. Which also included the Coram Street murder as well.

Rob

[Debra A]

Yes, these do appear to be the "earlier murders" in question. I've just written the story up for RNE.

http://extra.rippernotes.com/?p=96

This will come as no surprise, Mr Marriott seems to make a habit of making amazing discoveries that everyone already knew about. Anyone who has read the Twentieth Century Investigation will be aware that the first few pages are taken up by his amazing discovery that there are more than five murders in the police files for the Whitechapel Murders, something apparently nobody had spotted before he came along!

I believe that the Emma Jackson murder appeared most recently in the book "Unsolved Murders in Victorian and Edwardian London" By Jonathan Oates. I'm sure Rob Clack will know for sure as he is the one who mentioned it, but I'm not sure if I have remembered the right book.

[Ravenstone]

Be aware that there are two editions of Marriott's book out. The first doesn't name a suspect (only suggesting that it was some unknown sailor. By the second edition the author had decided that Carl Feigenbaum was the Ripper.

I got the first edition. Did I miss anything other than the naming of Carl Feigenbaum?

I try to limit my buying of reissued Ripper books to Donald Rumbelow's Complete JtR!