JTR Killer Revealed

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi folks,

Mann and his colleague thought the doctor wanted Polly undressed and ready for autopsy. This proved not to be the case and the doctor and coroner were upset. No doubt, suspicions of necrophilia were tossed around, therefore when Annie Chapman's body rolled onto the slab, two women stayed with her along with Mann until the doctor could arrive.

The 'mortuary' was nothing more than a shed and illustrations of it appear in many books on the case. Coroner Baxter would go on about how insufficient the premises were for work. Robert Mann was an inmate from the Working Lad's institute, so I don't see how he would have had the freedom to commit the murders.

There's literally nothing to suggest he was a murderer, let alone slippery Jack. It's all fiction as are the claims that 'two years' of intense investigation lured Trow to this conclusion. It's ridiculous.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Elias]

Hi all,

Thought the programme was interesting and Mann, or someone like him, is certainly a more viable proposition than some of the other more famous suspects.

Just a point on the geographic profiling bit though. Can this really be considered as relevant evidence when we are plucking previously unknown suspects out of the woodwork? I'm not denying it's very useful in other cases, but surely in this context you could pull any random individual who lived in Whitechapel at the time and find that they all lived in the 'red zone' or near it?

[Chris]

I saw the programme and it is definitely a mortuary where Robert Mann worked as a mortuary assistant, not a shed.

Thanks, but what I quoted was a statement made by the coroner at Chapman's inquest. Obviously the coroner wouldn't have made it lightly.

On what evidence did the programme argue that he was so seriously mistaken?

[#6.]

Any indication of happened to Mann? I mean, any reason given for why the murders ceased?

[scarletpimpernel]

Hi Chris,

I saw the programme and it is definitely a mortuary where Robert Mann worked as a mortuary assistant, not a shed.

The new suspect is as good as any other suspect and better than most. All the Ripper victims including the last one killed and who the author names as Alice Mackenzie end up in his slab as well. Robert Mann the new suspect is actually called to court as a witness and crucially he admitted undressing and opening up the body of one of the murdered women, contravening the regulations of the time that dictated a mortuary assistant shouldn't do that without the presence and direction of a doctor.

Dr. Peter Deen who is the present coroner of Whitechappel, gave his opinion that a post-morten knife is a possibility as the murder weapon and is also possible that someone who was standing behind a doctor's shoulder like a mortuary assistant, might have gained knowledge and experience in cutting organs.

In the programme, there was also an expert of the University College London presenting this known technique of geographic profiling which is now being used world-wide to solve serial murder crimes and he came to the conclusion that there was only a three minute walk from where the first victim was found from the mortuary where Mann used to work and only 5 minutes walk from the second one, close to the mortuary where Robert Mann worked. In fact, most of the murders took place on the same radious where Robert Mann grew up, worked, and lived. Stride's body was still warm when she was found. All of these roads where the victims were found, Dufffield yard, Berner St. and Mitre Square are within his killing patch quite close to where he lived and worked.

[The Grave Maurice]

OK, so the programme has been shown by now. What's the opinion of it?

[lynn cates]

Mann/Marne

Hello Chris. I think Mann is listed as Marne in the casebook coroner's inquest for Annie Chapman.

The best.
LC

[adrian]

It will be interesting to know if Trow's research is based on sociological profiling. This means it happens to be someone who fits age, occupation, location. If this be the case then we need more to go on. Did he have convictions for violence. Mental problems etc?
We will find out tonight.

Robert Mann, never heard of him myself, I once knew a Robert Maine?

ADRIAN.

[Chris]

It appears so (I didn't realise this either). This is from The Times inquest report on Annie Chapman, 14 Sept 1888:

"Robert Mann, an inmate of the Whitechapel Union, stated that he had charge of the mortuary. At 7 o'clock on Saturday morning he received the body of the deceased, and remained with it until the doctor arrived at 2 o'clock. Two nurses from the infirmary came and undressed the body. He was not in the shed when that was done."

Thanks. The comment of the coroner is interesting:
This is not a mortuary, but simply a shed. Bodies ought not to be taken there. In the East-end, where mortuaries are required more than anywhere else, there are no mortuaries.

One wonders whether the "shed" would really have contained a stock of surgical knives, as Trow suggests.

[John Bennett]

One thing puzzled me. Trow says that Mann appeared as a witness at two of the inquests. Is that correct?

It appears so (I didn't realise this either). This is from The Times inquest report on Annie Chapman, 14 Sept 1888:

"Robert Mann, an inmate of the Whitechapel Union, stated that he had charge of the mortuary. At 7 o'clock on Saturday morning he received the body of the deceased, and remained with it until the doctor arrived at 2 o'clock. Two nurses from the infirmary came and undressed the body. He was not in the shed when that was done."

Some other inquest reports fail to mention him.

[Chris]

There was an interview with Mei Trow on Radio 5 early this morning.
You can listen again at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ht_11_10_2009/
by dragging the time line across to 3 hours 15 minutes.

Thanks for this.

One thing puzzled me. Trow says that Mann appeared as a witness at two of the inquests. Is that correct?

[NickB]

There was an interview with Mei Trow on Radio 5 early this morning.
You can listen again at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ht_11_10_2009/
by dragging the time line across to 3 hours 15 minutes.

He concedes that his Robert Mann theory cannot be proved.

This contrasts with an interview I recall on LBC with Stephen Knight when his book came out. The interviewer started by introducing him as someone who had a new theory about Jack the Ripper, and Knight cut in that it was not a theory - he had finally discovered what really happened.

[#6.]

Here is an article regarding the show with a little more info on it. It appears the new suspect is a morgue attendant named Robert Mann. Never heard of him before although he may have been mentioned in some books but not as a suspect.

Here ya' go....

"New Jack the Ripper suspect was mortuary attendant who killed two more
women"


By Graham Smith
Last updated at 6:36 PM on 05th October 2009


An historian claims to have uncovered the identity of Jack the Ripper by
using modern police forensic techniques.


Mei Trow also believes that the notorious Whitechapel murderer was
responsible for the deaths of an additional two women.


He has concluded that Robert Mann, a local morgue attendant, was the killer
who terrorised east London in 1888 and who was officially credited with
dismembering five prostitutes.


Mr Trow's theory is based on two years of intensive research during which he
used forensic techniques including psychological and geographical profiling.


The beginnings of Mr Trow's investigation are rooted in 1988, when a US
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) examination of the Ripper case worked
up a comprehensive criminal personality profile using standard agency
procedures.


The FBI profile of the Ripper concluded that the killer was a white male
from the lower social classes, was probably from a broken home, had a menial
job such as a butcher or medical examiner's assistant, and because of
prolonged periods without human interaction, was socially inept.


Mr Trow said: 'I wanted to go beyond the myth of a caped man with a top hat
and knife, and get to the reality, and the reality is simply that Jack was
an ordinary man.'


He also believes that Martha Tabram, found with 39 stab wounds to her body
in Gunthorpe Street, was the first Ripper victims, and that Alice Mackenzie,
brutally murdered eight months after the confirmed five killings, was his
last.


The two women, along with confirmed victims, would have been delivered to
the Whitechapel mortuary in which Mann worked.


After the killing of Polly Nichols, the Ripper's first official victim, Mann
unlocked the mortuary for the police so they could examine the body and as
such, was called as a witness in her inquest to help establish the cause of
death.


Most damningly, he undressed Polly's body with his assistant, despite being
under strict instructions from police to not touch the body. Mr Trow
suspects this was an opportunity for Mann to admire his handiwork.


The coroner, in his summation of Mann's testimony concluded that, 'It
appears the mortuary keeper is subject to fits, and neither his memory nor
statements are reliable.'


A local of impoverished Whitechapel, Mann was from an extremely deprived
background, his father having been absent for much of his upbringing.


In addition, he tasted the ultimate Victorian humiliation of being an inmate
in the workhouse, which all citizens regarded as a hellish place to where
the lowest strata of society who were unable to support themselves were
relegated.


Professor Laurence Alison, forensic psychologist at Liverpool University,
said: 'In terms of psychological profiling, Robert Mann is the one of the
most credible suspects from recent years and the closest we may ever get to
a plausible psychological explanation for these most infamous of Victorian
murders.'


Mr Trow's theory forms the basis of the documentary Jack the Ripper: Killer
Revealed, which airs on Discovery Channel this Sunday and in the Jack the
Ripper: Quest for a Killer.

[Mike Covell]

Wonder if they find the wine glass full of blood that was left at the scene.

[larue]

just what the world needs. another jtr suspect

am i alone in expecting to be totally underwhelmed, again?

Trow returns to the streets of Whitechapel to track down clues vital to his theory

[giggle] reckon they've all been swept away by now mate