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Oh, Dear Boss: Druitt's on a Sticky Wicket

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  • Originally posted by Doctored Whatsit View Post

    I couldn't agree more about ending those arguments and accusations which will get us nowhere! Personally, I think that when a person as senior as Mac. names Druitt and claims that his family suspected him of being JtR, then he must be a person of interest. Whether we, as individuals choose after mature consideration to dismiss him or elevate him to suspect status, is down to our own personal opinion. I leave him as a person of interest, because, although there is no other evidence of value against him, he cannot be acquitted either. Mature and sensible debate is therefore in order, I believe.

    The alleged suicide note, as George points out, is particularly interesting, and is very worthy of consideration. "Since Friday I felt that I was going to be like mother, and the best thing was for me to die." This is quite intriguing, is it not? What exactly did he mean by "Since Friday", and "like mother"? As he seems to have died on December 1st, and certainly not earlier, then logically "Friday" should mean the previous friday to the writing of the note, so Friday 9th November is extremely unlikely. It seems odd for a serial killer to have committed four, five, or more murders without triggering the response in a barrister's mind that something wasn't quite right! It could, perhaps have been something to do with the school, and his behaviour there. Then we have "like mother", to consider. Ann Druitt was a chronic depressive, and had paranoid delusions. She was not a serial killer! Possibly "like mother" simply means that he was dismissed from the school after some dramatic exhibition of paranoia. We should be linking "Friday" and "like mother" in our considerations, because that is what the suicide note says. Something happened the previous friday that made him think he was "going to be like mother". It is difficult, if not impossible, to relate this to his being a serial killer.

    But was the suicide note genuine? If he truly wrote a suicide note before his train journey to Hammersmith, why on earth did he buy a return ticket? If he intended to return, why did he write a suicide note before leaving? It makes no obvious sense! As his brother, a solicitor, seems to have been prepared to lie on oath at the inquest about Monty's lack of surviving relatives, we have no convincing reason to accept that the suicide note was genuine. That leaves us with all sorts of considerations, such as the brother just wanted to create a clear cut Coroner's verdict of "suicide whilst of unsound mind", to permit a burial in consecrated ground, or even that Monty was murdered ....
    What’s also interesting is that we only get to hear one line of the suicide note DW. I’m no expert on suicides notes but surely he’d have written more than a one-liner?
    Regards

    Sir Herlock Sholmes

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

      In 1888 as today it’s almost impossible to arrest a corpse.
      Just because a suspect dies that doesnt stop an investigation. there used to be a police term "Detected crime no proceedings" but of course in the case of Druiit given what we know I would have expected him to have been eliminated if the police in 1894 had conducted the investigation into him in the way previously decsribed. But if that had happened I would have expected the results of that investigation to have been recorderd by MM in the Aberconway version, at the point he exonarates Kosminski and Ostrog.

      www.trevormarriott.co.uk

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Kattrup View Post
        Your reply is a repeat of a well-known suggestion, as evidenced by the word "suggest".

        And so, unsurprisingly, we have to repeat the question: what is the proven connection to the Chummery?
        Maybe you should direct that question to Keith Skinner ,but adding to what has been said is that his body was located near to this establishment and with rocks in his pocket so the body clearly had not floated far from where it went into the water.

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

          Maybe you should direct that question to Keith Skinner ,but adding to what has been said is that his body was located near to this establishment and with rocks in his pocket so the body clearly had not floated far from where it went into the water.

          www.trevormarriott.co.uk
          Eddowes was found near a synagogue. Do we assume that she was Jewish? Stride was found next to the club. Was she a Socialist?
          Regards

          Sir Herlock Sholmes

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Doctored Whatsit View Post

            I couldn't agree more about ending those arguments and accusations which will get us nowhere! Personally, I think that when a person as senior as Mac. names Druitt and claims that his family suspected him of being JtR, then he must be a person of interest. Whether we, as individuals choose after mature consideration to dismiss him or elevate him to suspect status, is down to our own personal opinion. I leave him as a person of interest, because, although there is no other evidence of value against him, he cannot be acquitted either. Mature and sensible debate is therefore in order, I believe.

            The alleged suicide note, as George points out, is particularly interesting, and is very worthy of consideration. "Since Friday I felt that I was going to be like mother, and the best thing was for me to die." This is quite intriguing, is it not? What exactly did he mean by "Since Friday", and "like mother"? As he seems to have died on December 1st, and certainly not earlier, then logically "Friday" should mean the previous friday to the writing of the note, so Friday 9th November is extremely unlikely. It seems odd for a serial killer to have committed four, five, or more murders without triggering the response in a barrister's mind that something wasn't quite right! It could, perhaps have been something to do with the school, and his behaviour there. Then we have "like mother", to consider. Ann Druitt was a chronic depressive, and had paranoid delusions. She was not a serial killer! Possibly "like mother" simply means that he was dismissed from the school after some dramatic exhibition of paranoia. We should be linking "Friday" and "like mother" in our considerations, because that is what the suicide note says. Something happened the previous friday that made him think he was "going to be like mother". It is difficult, if not impossible, to relate this to his being a serial killer.

            But was the suicide note genuine? If he truly wrote a suicide note before his train journey to Hammersmith, why on earth did he buy a return ticket? If he intended to return, why did he write a suicide note before leaving? It makes no obvious sense! As his brother, a solicitor, seems to have been prepared to lie on oath at the inquest about Monty's lack of surviving relatives, we have no convincing reason to accept that the suicide note was genuine. That leaves us with all sorts of considerations, such as the brother just wanted to create a clear cut Coroner's verdict of "suicide whilst of unsound mind", to permit a burial in consecrated ground, or even that Monty was murdered ....
            Hi Doc,

            The date of his actual death is uncertain (tombstone says 4 Dec), but the last day he was at his residence at Blackheath, where the note was found, was Saturday 1 Dec. I find it unlikely that someone would write "since Friday" rather than "since yesterday" when referring to the day before. Since we don't know when, or if, he wrote the note, he could have been referring to any Friday before 1 Dec except, I think, the day before. I also hold suspicions about his brother.

            Cheers, George
            Last edited by GBinOz; 06-23-2022, 02:23 PM.
            “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

              Just because a suspect dies that doesnt stop an investigation. there used to be a police term "Detected crime no proceedings" but of course in the case of Druiit given what we know I would have expected him to have been eliminated if the police in 1894 had conducted the investigation into him in the way previously decsribed. But if that had happened I would have expected the results of that investigation to have been recorderd by MM in the Aberconway version, at the point he exonarates Kosminski and Ostrog.

              www.trevormarriott.co.uk
              This is 6 years after Druitt had died and MacNaghten didn’t say that he had slam dunk evidence. So if he’d realised at the time that nothing could have been gained by investigating further because the evidence wouldn’t have been sufficient for a posthumous conviction then what would have been the point? And if the information had come via the family would they have been willing to have spoken out officially and bought shame on the family name?
              Regards

              Sir Herlock Sholmes

              Comment


              • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

                Is that a fact Abby or are you just stating it as one?.Where does it say Druitt was named as a suspect and by whom , you know from someone that was actually there
                yes its a fact. mcnaughten named him a suspect and personally thought he was the ripper. you can play the silly semantic games of person of interest vs supect all day long but its meaningless. druitt was and will remain a suspect for the ripper until he is definitively ruled out.
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                  Martin Howells and Keith Skinner, in their book, The Ripper Legacy, suggest that Druitt came to Chiswick to visit ‘Wilson’s chummery’, a sort of informal club for homosexuals at The Osiers, Chiswick Mall, and the home of one Henry Wilson from 1887 until 1895.

                  Henry Wilson was a barrister, a close friend of the Duke of Clarence and a leading member of the Apostles, an exclusive, esoteric and secretive homosexual group. Homosexuality was, of course, illegal and the need for secrecy was particularly necessary in the 1880s and 1890s.

                  www.trevormarriott.co.uk


                  Isn't it also theorised that Monty's mother may have been accommodated in the Tuke's sanatorium in Chiswick?

                  I can't recall off the top of my head whether this has been verified or is mere supposition.

                  Either way, it's another plausible possibility for why he likely committed suicide in Chiswick or it's environs.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                    Hi Doc,

                    The date of his actual death is uncertain (tombstone says 4 Dec), but the last day he was at his residence at Blackheath, where the note was found, was Saturday 1 Dec. I find it unlikely that someone would write "since Friday" rather than "since yesterday" when referring to the day before. Since we don't know when, or if, he wrote the note, he could have been referring to any Friday before 1 Dec except, I think, the day before. I also hold suspicions about his brother.

                    Cheers, George
                    HI George,

                    Yes, as I wrote, the day of death was Dec 1st or later, but, I think it was actually Dec 1st, because of the return ticket in his pocket. I agree that "since Friday" is odd if "Friday" was yesterday, and equally odd if he meant "Friday", a week ago. This is one of the reasons that I consider the suicide note was not genuine. I think that the writer of the note didn't realise that there was a train ticket for Saturday 1st Dec in his pocket. Yes, that means his brother!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

                      Isn't it also theorised that Monty's mother may have been accommodated in the Tuke's sanatorium in Chiswick?

                      I can't recall off the top of my head whether this has been verified or is mere supposition.

                      Either way, it's another plausible possibility for why he likely committed suicide in Chiswick or it's environs.
                      According to the A - Z, Ann Druitt was at an asylum in Brighton where she had remained uninterrupted since the previous September, and then transferred to Tukes at Chiswick in May 1889.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

                        Isn't it also theorised that Monty's mother may have been accommodated in the Tuke's sanatorium in Chiswick?

                        I can't recall off the top of my head whether this has been verified or is mere supposition.

                        Either way, it's another plausible possibility for why he likely committed suicide in Chiswick or it's environs.
                        She spent her final days in the Manor House Asylum, Chiswick Ms D. Thomas Tuke signed her death certificate when she died there in 1890.
                        Regards

                        Sir Herlock Sholmes

                        Comment


                        • Ahhhh ok!

                          Thanks Doc / Herlock!

                          So if the dates from the A-Z are correct, it was after Monty died that she was moved to Chiswick.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                            This is 6 years after Druitt had died and MacNaghten didn’t say that he had slam dunk evidence. So if he’d realised at the time that nothing could have been gained by investigating further because the evidence wouldn’t have been sufficient for a posthumous conviction then what would have been the point? And if the information had come via the family would they have been willing to have spoken out officially and bought shame on the family name?
                            There is and never was anyhting called a posthmous conviction any crime detected and attributed to a criminal is reliant on there being evidence to prove that persons guilt

                            There is not one scrap of evidence/information that MM after receiving the information took any steps to investigate it or to prove or disprove its credibilty so it is regarded as nothing more than uncorrobrated "HEARSAY" and Druitt "A person of interest" At Best

                            www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                            Last edited by Trevor Marriott; 06-23-2022, 04:08 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                              What’s also interesting is that we only get to hear one line of the suicide note DW. I’m no expert on suicides notes but surely he’d have written more than a one-liner?
                              Yes, I think there should have been more, but I don't believe that anyone knows. According to the A - Z, Druitt left a letter for Mr Valentine (Blackheath school) alluding to suicide, and the quoted note for his brother. I don't think that anyone has any more information. I don't know why he would write a message alluding to suicide to the man who sacked him. I believe that both notes were found by his brother - allegedly.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post
                                Ahhhh ok!

                                Thanks Doc / Herlock!

                                So if the dates from the A-Z are correct, it was after Monty died that she was moved to Chiswick.
                                You can always trust Sholmes and Whatsit Ms D
                                Regards

                                Sir Herlock Sholmes

                                Comment

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