Ep. #39- A Diseased and Vile Creature: Thomas Cutbush

[Natalie Severn]

Chris,
As my point was about the repugnant language Ally was using to defame the character of Ap ,your point is not relevant here.
Best Wishes
Norma

[Ally]

Thank you Chris, exactly. I find it completely beyond belief that such a case would not be readily available on the internet in the true crime files and wouldn't to some degree even be in the national consciousness, at least among those of our German friends here who study crime. I should also point out the Herr Jaud is still diligently following up leads with the Essen police force and should have a definitive account for us, one way or the other. Who knows, I might end up eating my words after all.

[Chris]

I had really hoped this awful matter of Ap"s character assassination by Ally would have stopped by now...

When Ally commented before:
"There are only two possibilities here. Either the case exists exactly as AP reported it, and he will provide the details so that we can study this case, which is frankly fascinating with all the various twists and turns. Or the case doesn't exist, in which case, AP invented a story that has no basis in fact, which would hardly be the first time he'd done so, and you are hardly the one who should feel guilty about that."
you replied
"That sounds fair"

It sounded fair to me as well.

The problem is that the story as presented by A. P. Wolf involves a "series of particularly brutal rapes and assaults" in Essen, which - if it ever happened - must have been of national interest to start with. But then we have the additional claims that another police force had been informed of the culprit's identity while the attacks were continuing, that the informant was threatened by the officers of that force because the culprit was the son of one of its senior officers, to the extent that she moved out of the area "to begin a new life", and when the matter was finally investigated there was discovered "overwhelming evidence that the local police had manifestly interfered with witness statements, misplaced and ‘lost’ files intentionally, and had indeed been harassing the girl".

If that had really happened it would obviously have constituted a national scandal. And yet all efforts to trace the case - both inside and outside Germany - have completely failed.

So isn't it natural to conclude that "AP invented a story that has no basis in fact"? In fact, isn't that what you yourself said would be fair?

[halomanuk]

Thanks for that Ally,i can listen to the 'Cutbush' pod in peace now when i reach it.
What a shame,you would have that that Wolf would have at least waited to see what Phil had to offer,they are both dedicated to the same cause !!

[Ally]

No, the hoax story was on the Dutfield's yard thread. Philip Hutchinson found a photo of Dutfield's yard taken about 12 years after the murders. He created a thread about it but refused to show it, saying that it would be printed and available in a book. As a "tease" Phil posted a grainy, bad resolution copy of the photo for about 24 hours in which not much could be made out. Several people who have seen the photo believe it to be a genuine photo of Dutfield's and have gone on record saying they believe it to be genuine. AP decided it was a hoax top to bottom and made many insinuations finally culminating in him saying that Phil had photoshopped it and in his hurry had "misplaced" the identifying background buildings that pointed to it being Dutfields. He was told by the PTBs that as that statement crossed the line into slander territory, he either needed to withdraw the claim or provide actual evidence, he decided to tell the PTBs to go to hell.

Which resulted in his vacation.

[halomanuk]

Aah hoaxes etc..did this stem from the 'Cutbush 'podcast ?
I am really curious on this one..

[Ally]

P.S. Since I have gotten 3 asks in 3 minutes, no I do not know for sure that AP could come back if he apologized and retracted his statements regarding the hoax, I am guessing based on the known lenient and forgiving nature of the PTBs.

For all I know the Admin could tell AP to go to hell, which would be fitting.

[halomanuk]

Boy i am late back in the frame again..AP Wolf is banned ?
I haven't listened to the 'Cutbush' podcast yet as i am listening to each individually ..
blimey i have been away way too long...

[Ally]

No actually I don't feel any need to moderate my language. AP's ban came about by his own doing and was his own choice. It came about if you remember, by him accusing another poster on these boards of creating a deliberate hoax and when asked to provide evidence or withdraw the claim, he chose to tell the mod to go to hell rather than either doing one of those two very simple things. He'd rather stand by his slander than provide evidence for it or withdraw it, so I don't really feel a need to consider his feelings. And you know and I know that he could return at any time if he were a sufficient man to apologize and admit his mistake, which we all know he doesn't have the character or the balls to do.

And he has Robert and you to post messages on his behalf, so he's hardly shut out in the cold.

[Natalie Severn]

I had really hoped this awful matter of Ap"s character assassination by Ally would have stopped by now ,especially making such vicious comments about him all the time when he is no longer able to defend himself here because of the ban.
Would it be possible for you to moderate your language a bit Ally?
Thanks
Best Wishes
Norma

[protohistorian]

nutjob?

If a century of poor understanding has not helped, maybe a different approach is in order? What we think we know, may be complicating the issue. Respectfully Dave

[Ally]

Message to AP: Yeah, the case is so genuine you couldn't be arsed to put in any specific details whatsoever, like names of the accused, so your accusations could be verified?

Kind of a history with you isn't it, making accusations of wrongdoing and failing to provide any evidence when asked for it.

[Robert]

Message from AP : The Essen case is very much genuine. It came to light in 1991. I researched it over 15 years ago and have no reason or intention to do so again.

[Ally]

Hiya RJ,

Sorry I somehow missed this post. I realize that your approach and mine differ and that's cool. I am not "worried" about liars, I despise them. I find what AP has done and does, as evidenced in the case of this apparently completely made-up Essen case is not so much that of lying, but of outright fraud.

Deceiving the public for financial gain makes him not only a liar and a fraud, but also a hypocrite.

On the one hand, while I find it hilarious that he has no problems accusing others of inventing things and creating "hoaxes", while he goes merrily about doing the same thing, on the other, I find it incredulous that people actually consider this an okay and acceptable thing to do. That there are people like Robert, who seems a genuinely okay guy, who would defend and support AP, even though he is prone to outright lies, blatantly false accusations and gross hypocrisy just leaves me completely baffled.

AP's "charm" and unique approach is not all that intriguing or unusual. It is that of a conman: Fling as much mud as you can at a subject and whatever sticks, you claim and whatever doesn't stick, you deny throwing.

[rjpalmer]

Hi there RJ,

I am not complaining that AP isn't Sugden, I am complaining that it seems to be perfectly acceptable in this society and this field for people to lie, invent stories, fail to provide any evidence and it's considered acceptable, and vomit, admirable.

Oh, I utterly understand your concern. And, indeed, I've taken APW to task on many occasions; in regards to his bizarre beliefs about Fred Gump, for instance.

My interest in AP has nothing to do with his accuracy or his reliability, which I would never trust. (I don't particularly' trust anyone's facts). And this is precisely why I implied in my post that one should have at least 3 academic historians for every A.P.W.

APW, in my opinion, is a good and useful remedy for the stuffy certainties of a certain class of historian who errs in the other direction. The type who is so dead set on 'debunking' everything that lies outside his narrow vision that he commits --not factual errors (though sometimes those, too)-- but pompous errors of interpretation and opinion. These can be quite misleading--and even more dangerous than "factual" errors, because they usually disguise themselves as respectability.

You are evidently worried about the 'liars' in this field. I'm not worried about the liars, because I prefer to do my own research, and check things out, anyway. What worries me, instead, is a certain smugness among 'Ripperologists,' (and I'm not refering to you!)---a sort of institutional sheepishness that lets them fall quickly into line, and announce they have proved something when they actually haven't. We can all read the MEPO files for ourselves, sp I'm not so obsessed with the next guy's facts, so much as I am interested in how he (or she) approaches the case, or thinks about the case. And this is why I'm interested in outlaw curmudgeons like A.P.W. and the late David Radka, whether I agree with them or not. Rather than being pissed off because they are 'lying,' I'm more interested in trying to see how --or why-- they are thinking about the case in the way they are. I know you don't' agree--- which is fine--- but I have a soft spot for the mad theorists, not because I believe them, but because they help me loosen up the grey matter and approach the case in a different way. I think allowing a certain madness to have its day in court, or its corner in Hyde Park, is what made the British great.

Besides, Radka was right; good history--and history that eventually has verifiable documentation-- often begins with a subjective theory. Sometimes even a barmy theory. Too many historians fear theory because they fear being the fool.

As for why a possible nutcase would rant against Scotland yard, are you serious? The nuthouses of the world are filled with lunatics who believe that the police, the authorities, "the man" are all out to get him.

Absolutely. Which is precisely why some of them end up stabbing strangers on the sidewalk. But as Robert L. points out, how often do these same nutters have a Chief Constable at Scotland Yard claiming they are related to a Super? Can you and Chris P. see how the 'facts' don't really help you in such cases? In short, it doesn't hurt APW's theory one wit if 'the facts' say Cutbush Jr. wasn't related to Cutbush Sr., if the Chief Constable is saying that he was. The census information at ancestry.com implodes as long as the Chief Constable believes otherwise. Rumors, lies, misinformation, are also part of the historical record--whether we like it or not.