False Flag: Jack The Ripper with author Stephen Senise

[Abby Normal]

"But there is no doubt that broad shoulders, who also basically fit other descriptions of the ripper, was her killer and the ripper. Peaked cap and all that."

Sorry Abby, but I think there is plenty of doubt. There are just way too many red flags in the B.S. man as her killer scenario. For instance why would the B.S. man go on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man? To me, the whole incident simply resembles a common street hassle. I think her killer came along after the B.S. man had left. In his report, Swanson allowed for this possibility.

c.d.

HI CD
definitely a possibility-do you think it could have been pipe man?

[Abby Normal]

Peaked caps were, unfortunately, rather common back then. What's worse is that cap-wearing in general was very popular, too, and remained so well into the last century. Most men of my grandfather's generation were rarely seen without one; indeed, my grandfather would often wear his indoors!

that scoundrel!!

[Sam Flynn]

I made a poor job of that piece of quoting

At least it wasn't in ALL CAPS (or peaked caps, as the case may be).

[c.d.]

"But there is no doubt that broad shoulders, who also basically fit other descriptions of the ripper, was her killer and the ripper. Peaked cap and all that."

Sorry Abby, but I think there is plenty of doubt. There are just way too many red flags in the B.S. man as her killer scenario. For instance why would the B.S. man go on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man? To me, the whole incident simply resembles a common street hassle. I think her killer came along after the B.S. man had left. In his report, Swanson allowed for this possibility.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I made a poor job of that piece of quoting

[Herlock Sholmes]

[QUOTE=Sam Flynn;447733]Peaked caps were, unfortunately, rather common back then. What's worse is that cap-wearing in general was very popular, too, and remained so well into the last century. Most men of my grandfather's generation were rarely seen without one; indeed, my grandfather would often wear his indoors![/QUOTE]

With the Woodbine or Capstan’s on the go

[Joshua Rogan]

Peaked caps were, unfortunately, rather common back then.

No doubt courtesy of Schneider's peaked cap factory in Buck's Row!

[Sam Flynn]

Peaked caps were, unfortunately, rather common back then. What's worse is that cap-wearing in general was very popular, too, and remained so well into the last century. Most men of my grandfather's generation were rarely seen without one; indeed, my grandfather would often wear his indoors!

[Abby Normal]

You seem very confident on that point Abby

yes I am. you have several witnesses who all describe basically the same man seen with stride wearing a peaked cap. as does lawende and company later. as does the anon church st sighting in between.

Schwartz was a credible witness, his confused report has the ring of truth to it, and there is no evidence that he was lying.

chances are the man who was seen assaulting a woman who moments later is found dead was her killer. a man wearing a peaked cap who is seen later shortly before eddowes was killed-undoubtedly by the ripper.

My money is on the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night and on Abberlines take-see my sig below.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock
I think the ripper was having a tough time finagling stride to where he wanted her. And basically lost his cool.

And I wouldn’t be totally surprised if he actually cut her throat in the street and that Schwartz missed that part.

But there is no doubt that broad shoulders, who also basically fit other descriptions of the ripper, was her killer and the ripper. Peaked cap and all that.

You seem very confident on that point Abby

[Herlock Sholmes]

Abberline interviewed Schwartz, and Abberline states as a fact that 'Lipski' was used at the time as an insult to hurl at a jew. Anderson backed him up on this point. I don't believe anyone would feel that it was necessary to confirm what Abberline claimed as a fact. Its who shouted it that gets garbled by the Star, not what was shouted.

Edit- My post crossed with Stephen. Excellent quote from the Die Tsukunft. Thanks!

JM

Thanks JM

[Herlock Sholmes]

Stephen's 1887 quote from "Die Tzukunft" is even more useful in this context as, not only does it predate the Stride murder by more than a year, it's also from a Jewish source.

Cheers Gareth

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Abberline confirms the use of 'Lipski' as a local anti-Semitic insult, later repeated in a draft letter by Anderson.

The item I have found most interesting, by way of corroboration of Abberline's take, can be found in the Yiddish language Die Tsukunft of 12 August, 1887:

" When an ordinary person kills a person everything is quiet. It will not occur to anyone to call another person by the name of a murderer. But when Lipski is sentenced to death, the ordinary people taunted other Jews ‘Lipski’! "

As to the huge risks JTR took, it was an issue raised in editorial after editorial as the murder spree picked up momentum. "Audacious" is one adjective that just keeps popping up. This piece is one of my favourites, from the Star (7 September, 1889):

" All the murders have been audacious. The murderer has in each case taken chances which would have frightened any
ordinary assassin from his purpose."

Indeed, Dr Bond had warned police that the killer was a man, "of great coolness and daring".

Thanks for your personal insights here, Herlock; they are certainly food for thought and worth mulling over while we collectively lay stranded here in 1888 waiting for a break in the case and our way out of Whitechapel. Come that day.

Stephen
http://www.pressreader.com/australia...81694025363295

Thank you for that Stephen. There’s no doubt that Lipski was used as an insult. I think that ‘Lizzie’ remains a possible alternative though but, as you suggest, at a gap of 130 years we’re never going to know for sure.

Of course any series of murders committed largely outdoors would involve an element of risk that the killer would have had to have dealt with. Not the least of which would have been patrolling police officers. If he was utterly risk averse then he might not have chosen a location like Mitre Square of course. As he remained uncaught though i find it difficult to put it down entirely to luck. Some caution/cunning must have been used. This is why its difficult for me personally to see the ripper drawing attention to himself by yelling insults to passers-by. Of course i wouldnt say that i couldnt be wrong on this

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks for that Joshua. So it looks like it was used as an insult at the time

Stephen's 1887 quote from "Die Tzukunft" is even more useful in this context as, not only does it predate the Stride murder by more than a year, it's also from a Jewish source.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock
It was Inspector Abberline who suggested that Lipski was shouted at Schwartz as an insult, Schwartz himself was unable to say who the shout was directed at.
Abberline's 1st Nov report concerning the incident;

"I beg to report that since a jew named Lipski was hanged for the murder of a jewess in 1887 the name has very frequently been used by persons as mere ejaculation by way of endeavouring to insult the jew to whom it has been addressed, and as Schwartz has a strong jewish appearance I am of opinion it was addressed to him as he stopped to look at the man he saw ill-using the deceased woman.
I questioned Israel Schwartz very closely at the time he made the statement as to who the man addressed when he called Lipski, but he was unable to say."

This report was I believe the eventual response to a report by Swanson (19th Oct) where he stated that "The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the [Pipe]man on the opposite side of the road 'Lipski' & then Schwartz walked away" and concluded "the use of 'Lipski' increases my belief that the murderer was a Jew".

And yet, according to the Star 1st Oct interview with Schwartz, it was not the man who accosted Stride who called out, but Pipeman who shouted out "some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman"

So, given the uncertainty about who said what to whom, a cry of "Lizzie" seems, pardon the pun, as good a shout as any.

Thanks for that Joshua. So it looks like it was used as an insult at the time