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  • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    hi craig and wick

    the BGB/BM (bethnal green botherer/brittania man) is a very intriguing suspect IMHO:
    he generally fits the description of other witnesses
    hes accosting women and trying to get them to a secluded place
    hes frightening women
    hes carrying a knife size parcel (smiths man and others)
    he has a taunting/threatening/ teasing way of speaking-Marshalls man-"you would say anything but your prayers" ...Lewis-"something the ladies dont like"
    hes around at the time of kellys murder (whether you beleive in a kennedy or not)- Did he follow sarah lewis to millers court??

    Also, kennedy said she saw kelly with him at 3:00. Dosnt this cast doubt on hutchs statement? according to hutch isnt she still in her room with A man?
    could hutch have read about the accounts about BGB/BM and partially used him in his fake Aman account???

    what say you intrepid CB detectives?
    Hi Craig, Wick and Abby,

    This is from the Daily Telegraph dated 6 Oct 1888:

    SKETCH PORTRAITS OF THE SUPPOSED MURDERER.
    [Two sketches]
    The next portion of this issue's report from "The above sketches…" to "…for rain was falling at the time." is reproduced in "News from Whitechapel" pages 124 - 126. Immediately following that on from that portion, the Telegraph reported:

    It is a remarkable circumstance - much more than an ordinary coincidence - that the description of the supposed murderer given by Packer was yesterday confirmed by another man who, without being aware of the fact, also chose from the sketches the one which had been already selected by Packer. Search for an individual answering to the description above detailed, but having a small moustache and wearing a black deerstalker felt hat, instead of a soft one, has been made by the police in Whitechapel ever since Saturday, Sept. 1, the day following the Buck's-row tragedy. Information was tendered at the King David's-lane Police Station, at about that time, by a dairyman who has a place of business in Little Turner-street, Commercial-road. It will be recollected that on Saturday, Sept. 1, a desperate assault was reported to have been committed near to the music-hall in Cambridge-heath-road, a man having seized a woman by the throat and dragged her down a court, where he was joined by a gang, one of whom laid a knife across the woman's throat, remarking "we will serve you as we did the others." The particulars of this affair were subsequently stated to be untrue; but the milkman has reason to suppose that the outrage was actually perpetrated, and he suspects that the murderer of Mary Ann Nicholls in Buck's-row had something to do with it. At any rate, upon that Saturday night, at five minutes to eleven o'clock, a man corresponding with the description given by Packer of the individual who purchased the grapes in Berner-street, called at the shop, which is on the left of a covered yard, usually occupied by barrows, which are let out on hire. He was in a hurry, and he asked for a pennyworth of milk, with which he was served, and he drank it down at a gulp. Asking permission to go into the yard or shed, he went there, but the dairyman caught a glimpse of something white, and, having suspicions, he rejoined the man in the shed, and was surprised to observe that he had covered up his trousers with a pair of white over-alls, such as engineers wear. The man had a staring look, and appeared greatly agitated. He made a movement forward, and the brim of his hard felt hat struck the dairyman, who is therefore sure of the kind that he was wearing. In a hurried manner the stranger took out of a black shiny bag, which was on the ground, a white jacket and rapidly put it on, completely hiding his cutaway black coat, remarking meanwhile, "It's a dreadful murder, isn't it?" although the subject had not been previously mentioned. Without making a pause the suspicious person caught up his bag, which was still open, and rushed into the street, towards Shadwell, saying, "I think I've got a clue!" The matter was reported to the police, and although strict watch has been maintained for the reappearance of the man he has not been seen in the street since. He is said to have had a dark complexion, such as a seafaring man acquires. The style of collar that he was then wearing was of the turn-down pattern. He had no marked American accent, and his general appearance was that of a clerk or student whose beard had been allowed three days' growth. His hair was dark, and his eyes large and staring. The portrait gives, according to the statement of the witness, a good approximate idea of his look. The bag carried by the young man, whose age the dairyman places at twenty-eight, is stated to have been provided with a lock at the top, near the handle, and was made, as stated, of a black glistening material.
    Immediately following on from the above, the next portion of this issue's report from "In connection with…" to "…the morning of the murder in Berner-street." is reproduced in "News from Whitechapel" page 126. Immediately following that portion the Telegraph reported:

    Albert Bachert, of 13, Newnham-street, Whitechapel, has also stated: "On Saturday night at about seven minutes to twelve I entered the Three Nuns Hotel, Aldgate. While in there an elderly woman, very shabbily dressed, came in and asked me to buy some matches. I refused, and she went out. A man who had been standing by me remarked that those persons were a nuisance, to which I responded 'Yes.' He then asked me to have a glass with him, but I refused, as I had just called for one myself. He then asked me if I knew how old some of the women were who were in the habit of soliciting outside. I replied that I knew or thought that some of them who looked about 25 were over 35, the reason they looked younger being on account of the powder and paint. He asked me if I could tell him where they usually visited, and I replied that I had heard that some went to places in Oxford-street, Whitechapel, others to some houses in Whitechapel-road, and others to Bishopsgate-street. Having asked other questions about their habits, he went outside and spoke to the woman who was selling matches, and gave her something, I believe. He returned to me, and I bid him good-night at about ten minutes past twelve. I believe the woman was waiting for him. I do not think I could identify the woman, as I did not take particular notice of her, but I should know the man again. He was a dark man, height about 5ft. 6in. or 7in. He wore a black felt hat, dark clothes, morning coat, black tie, and carried a black shiny bag."

    There is one striking point in Bachert's narration. His interrogator appears to have asked him particularly about the age of the women outside. Hitherto it has been singular that none of the victims were young women, all of them having been over forty years of age. With respect to the age of their assailant the witnesses differ, but the police in connection with the Berner-street tragedy circulate the following description of a man "wanted," as having been seen in the company of the deceased during the Saturday evening: "Age twenty-eight; slight; height 5ft. 8in.; complexion dark; no whiskers; black diagonal coat, hard felt hat; collar and tie; carried newspaper parcel; respectable appearance." The age, twenty-eight, herein named, is favoured by two witnesses, whilst Bachert thinks he was a little older, and, assuming that the same man was also seen by Mrs. Long, who gave evidence at the Hanbury-street inquest, he must have been forty. In the interval he may have taken pains to alter his personal appearance by shaving, so as to elude detection. Mrs. Long is the person who saw Annie Chapman in Hanbury-street shortly before her death, and at that time, 5.30 a.m. on Sept. 8, she was talking to a dark man, who was wearing a "brown low-crowned felt hat, and who had the appearance of a 'shabby genteel' foreigner." A thoroughly practical suggestion has been made for the Scotland-yard authorities to adopt. In their possession at Whitehall they have some thousands of photographs of criminals, with full particulars concerning their convictions. These are kept bound in registers, which can be consulted easily. If the witnesses who are believed to have seen the Whitechapel murderer were permitted to examine these records one or other of them might possibly find a face which would serve to identify the suspect, and, if not, the fact might be presumptively established that the detectives need not look for the man in the ranks of recognised criminals.

    Cheers, George
    “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

      Hi Craig, Wick and Abby,

      This is from the Daily Telegraph dated 6 Oct 1888:

      SKETCH PORTRAITS OF THE SUPPOSED MURDERER.
      [Two sketches]
      The next portion of this issue's report from "The above sketches…" to "…for rain was falling at the time." is reproduced in "News from Whitechapel" pages 124 - 126. Immediately following that on from that portion, the Telegraph reported:

      It is a remarkable circumstance - much more than an ordinary coincidence - that the description of the supposed murderer given by Packer was yesterday confirmed by another man who, without being aware of the fact, also chose from the sketches the one which had been already selected by Packer. Search for an individual answering to the description above detailed, but having a small moustache and wearing a black deerstalker felt hat, instead of a soft one, has been made by the police in Whitechapel ever since Saturday, Sept. 1, the day following the Buck's-row tragedy. Information was tendered at the King David's-lane Police Station, at about that time, by a dairyman who has a place of business in Little Turner-street, Commercial-road. It will be recollected that on Saturday, Sept. 1, a desperate assault was reported to have been committed near to the music-hall in Cambridge-heath-road, a man having seized a woman by the throat and dragged her down a court, where he was joined by a gang, one of whom laid a knife across the woman's throat, remarking "we will serve you as we did the others." The particulars of this affair were subsequently stated to be untrue; but the milkman has reason to suppose that the outrage was actually perpetrated, and he suspects that the murderer of Mary Ann Nicholls in Buck's-row had something to do with it. At any rate, upon that Saturday night, at five minutes to eleven o'clock, a man corresponding with the description given by Packer of the individual who purchased the grapes in Berner-street, called at the shop, which is on the left of a covered yard, usually occupied by barrows, which are let out on hire. He was in a hurry, and he asked for a pennyworth of milk, with which he was served, and he drank it down at a gulp. Asking permission to go into the yard or shed, he went there, but the dairyman caught a glimpse of something white, and, having suspicions, he rejoined the man in the shed, and was surprised to observe that he had covered up his trousers with a pair of white over-alls, such as engineers wear. The man had a staring look, and appeared greatly agitated. He made a movement forward, and the brim of his hard felt hat struck the dairyman, who is therefore sure of the kind that he was wearing. In a hurried manner the stranger took out of a black shiny bag, which was on the ground, a white jacket and rapidly put it on, completely hiding his cutaway black coat, remarking meanwhile, "It's a dreadful murder, isn't it?" although the subject had not been previously mentioned. Without making a pause the suspicious person caught up his bag, which was still open, and rushed into the street, towards Shadwell, saying, "I think I've got a clue!" The matter was reported to the police, and although strict watch has been maintained for the reappearance of the man he has not been seen in the street since. He is said to have had a dark complexion, such as a seafaring man acquires. The style of collar that he was then wearing was of the turn-down pattern. He had no marked American accent, and his general appearance was that of a clerk or student whose beard had been allowed three days' growth. His hair was dark, and his eyes large and staring. The portrait gives, according to the statement of the witness, a good approximate idea of his look. The bag carried by the young man, whose age the dairyman places at twenty-eight, is stated to have been provided with a lock at the top, near the handle, and was made, as stated, of a black glistening material.
      Immediately following on from the above, the next portion of this issue's report from "In connection with…" to "…the morning of the murder in Berner-street." is reproduced in "News from Whitechapel" page 126. Immediately following that portion the Telegraph reported:

      Albert Bachert, of 13, Newnham-street, Whitechapel, has also stated: "On Saturday night at about seven minutes to twelve I entered the Three Nuns Hotel, Aldgate. While in there an elderly woman, very shabbily dressed, came in and asked me to buy some matches. I refused, and she went out. A man who had been standing by me remarked that those persons were a nuisance, to which I responded 'Yes.' He then asked me to have a glass with him, but I refused, as I had just called for one myself. He then asked me if I knew how old some of the women were who were in the habit of soliciting outside. I replied that I knew or thought that some of them who looked about 25 were over 35, the reason they looked younger being on account of the powder and paint. He asked me if I could tell him where they usually visited, and I replied that I had heard that some went to places in Oxford-street, Whitechapel, others to some houses in Whitechapel-road, and others to Bishopsgate-street. Having asked other questions about their habits, he went outside and spoke to the woman who was selling matches, and gave her something, I believe. He returned to me, and I bid him good-night at about ten minutes past twelve. I believe the woman was waiting for him. I do not think I could identify the woman, as I did not take particular notice of her, but I should know the man again. He was a dark man, height about 5ft. 6in. or 7in. He wore a black felt hat, dark clothes, morning coat, black tie, and carried a black shiny bag."

      There is one striking point in Bachert's narration. His interrogator appears to have asked him particularly about the age of the women outside. Hitherto it has been singular that none of the victims were young women, all of them having been over forty years of age. With respect to the age of their assailant the witnesses differ, but the police in connection with the Berner-street tragedy circulate the following description of a man "wanted," as having been seen in the company of the deceased during the Saturday evening: "Age twenty-eight; slight; height 5ft. 8in.; complexion dark; no whiskers; black diagonal coat, hard felt hat; collar and tie; carried newspaper parcel; respectable appearance." The age, twenty-eight, herein named, is favoured by two witnesses, whilst Bachert thinks he was a little older, and, assuming that the same man was also seen by Mrs. Long, who gave evidence at the Hanbury-street inquest, he must have been forty. In the interval he may have taken pains to alter his personal appearance by shaving, so as to elude detection. Mrs. Long is the person who saw Annie Chapman in Hanbury-street shortly before her death, and at that time, 5.30 a.m. on Sept. 8, she was talking to a dark man, who was wearing a "brown low-crowned felt hat, and who had the appearance of a 'shabby genteel' foreigner." A thoroughly practical suggestion has been made for the Scotland-yard authorities to adopt. In their possession at Whitehall they have some thousands of photographs of criminals, with full particulars concerning their convictions. These are kept bound in registers, which can be consulted easily. If the witnesses who are believed to have seen the Whitechapel murderer were permitted to examine these records one or other of them might possibly find a face which would serve to identify the suspect, and, if not, the fact might be presumptively established that the detectives need not look for the man in the ranks of recognised criminals.

      Cheers, George
      hi gb
      interesting but whats your point? that they resemble the bgb? please elaborate, im a little slow on the uptake.
      re the photographs. ive often said the police should have photgraphed all the suspects AND the male witnesses who could have been the killer, like hutch lech bowyer etc., to also show other witnesses.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

        hi gb
        interesting but whats your point? that they resemble the bgb? please elaborate, im a little slow on the uptake.
        Hi Abby,

        Point is that there are reports of a person of similar description, the staring eyes, hard felt deerstalker and shiny black bag, across the entire range of canonical victims. Pity there is no physical description of Kosminsky with which to make a comparison.

        Cheers, George
        “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

          Hi Abby,

          Point is that there are reports of a person of similar description, the staring eyes, hard felt deerstalker and shiny black bag, across the entire range of canonical victims. Pity there is no physical description of Kosminsky with which to make a comparison.

          Cheers, George
          ok thanks!

          Comment

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