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  • Hello Pierre

    Many thanks, I really appreciate this. However, the question was at what time the parade with floats, bands etc started (which could possibly have preceded the mayoral procession). Not that the exact time really matters to my point, which was that Mary would have left early, in order to secure a good place, much as people nowadays camp out all night to get a good place. Out of the question then of course due to the law on sleeping on the street.

    Thank you once again.

    Best wishes
    C4

    Comment


    • Originally posted by curious4 View Post
      Not that the exact time really matters to my point, which was that Mary would have left early, in order to secure a good place, much as people nowadays camp out all night to get a good place.
      Actually your point was this:

      "The problem with ten am is that Mary was planning to see the Lord Mayor's show (with sit-down meal for the poorest) and it began at 10 am I believe. Surely she would have left earlier not to miss anything and to claim a seat at the table?"

      But there was no "seat at the table" to be claimed and the "show" (which was a procession through the City streets) began at its scheduled time of 12.30pm. It was reported that the streets along the route were practically deserted up to 10.30am that morning - no-one was going to be standing for two hours in the rain waiting for the procession to start - and it wasn't until noon that people started flocking into them. So, however much you want to try and devise an argument that Mary would have been on her way to the show at 10am, it simply isn't going to work.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
        Actually your point was this:

        "The problem with ten am is that Mary was planning to see the Lord Mayor's show (with sit-down meal for the poorest) and it began at 10 am I believe. Surely she would have left earlier not to miss anything and to claim a seat at the table?"

        But there was no "seat at the table" to be claimed and the "show" (which was a procession through the City streets) began at its scheduled time of 12.30pm. It was reported that the streets along the route were practically deserted up to 10.30am that morning - no-one was going to be standing for two hours in the rain waiting for the procession to start - and it wasn't until noon that people started flocking into them. So, however much you want to try and devise an argument that Mary would have been on her way to the show at 10am, it simply isn't going to work.
        Oh dear! You do seem to be very upset for some reason! And you do have a tendency to state "facts" without corroboration as far as I can see. "It is a matter of record" - where? 2012 is relevant as these kind of events do follow a pattern. One of the links I posted shows a picture of a float from a Lord Mayor's Show, judging by the clothes, from around the beginning of the last century. The meal (as we can read from Pierre's clip was for "no conditions except that they are poor and needy" - quote from memory. Yes, the crowds deserted the parade streets AFTER the news of Mary's murder. Understanderable really. As for not wanting to stand in the rain, people today still do for big events, despite being more cosseted and less hardy than the Victorians. Had Mary not been murdered, she would doubtless have left early with a friend or two, as Dew says she was usually accompanied by two or three of her kind"
        The Lord Mayor' s Show was a big event - and free. In the days before radio and television these events were even more looked forward to, especially as largesse to the poor played a big part in the proceedings.
        She was murdered, so no Lord Mayor's Show for her, much as she was looking forward to it, but I give little credence to those who claimed to have seen her that morning - hungover or not if alive she would have been on her way, not hanging round where she lived.

        C4

        Comment


        • Originally posted by curious4 View Post
          Oh dear! You do seem to be very upset for some reason! And you do have a tendency to state "facts" without corroboration as far as I can see. "It is a matter of record" - where? 2012 is relevant as these kind of events do follow a pattern.
          I don't know why you think I'm upset. I certainly do not state facts without corroboration. You have been given a reference (by Simon Wood) which backs up what I have said. It's not my fault you can't find it. Nor is it my fault that Pierre gave you the wrong extract.

          The procession in 1888 was very different to modern processions and, in fact, was different to other processions in the 1880s due to the fact that it was drastically scaled down but that is completely irrelevant to this discussion because nothing happened at all before 12.30pm when the procession departed from Guildhall.

          The crowds did not desert the procession after the news of Mary's murder started to filter through (other than, perhaps, because it had already passed by and there was nothing more to see) but this is also irrelevant because the only issue is whether local people were standing around from 10am waiting for the procession to start - and they were not.

          The qualifying criteria for the free dinner is another irrelevance bearing in mind it did not take place until the evening but if you read Pierre's extract carefully you will see that it says that the meat tea was for "two thousand destitute people". Do you seriously think there was an open invitation to all the poor of the east end to just turn up for a free meal?

          From reading your posts it's clear to me that you don't understand the events of Lord Mayor's Day 1888 so you might want to do some actual research about it before commenting further.

          Comment


          • Hi All,

            Evening Standard, 10th November 1888 -

            Click image for larger version

Name:	EVENING STANDARD 10 NOV 1888.JPG
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ID:	666663

            Regards,

            Simon

            Comment


            • Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
              I don't know why you think I'm upset. I certainly do not state facts without corroboration. You have been given a reference (by Simon Wood) which backs up what I have said. It's not my fault you can't find it. Nor is it my fault that Pierre gave you the wrong extract.

              The procession in 1888 was very different to modern processions and, in fact, was different to other processions in the 1880s due to the fact that it was drastically scaled down but that is completely irrelevant to this discussion because nothing happened at all before 12.30pm when the procession departed from Guildhall.

              The crowds did not desert the procession after the news of Mary's murder started to filter through (other than, perhaps, because it had already passed by and there was nothing more to see) but this is also irrelevant because the only issue is whether local people were standing around from 10am waiting for the procession to start - and they were not.

              The qualifying criteria for the free dinner is another irrelevance bearing in mind it did not take place until the evening but if you read Pierre's extract carefully you will see that it says that the meat tea was for "two thousand destitute people". Do you seriously think there was an open invitation to all the poor of the east end to just turn up for a free meal?

              From reading your posts it's clear to me that you don't understand the events of Lord Mayor's Day 1888 so you might want to do some actual research about it before commenting further.
              Irish Times Dublin, Ireland

              Saturday, 10 November 1888



              SHOCKING MURDER

              (SPECIAL TELEGRAM)

              LONDON, FRIDAY



              This morning, in the midst of the popular demonstration connected with the Lord Mayor's Show, the tens of thousands of persons who had assembled along the line of route from the City to the West End to watch the civic pageant pass were startled and horrified by the hoarse cries of the street newspaper hawkers announcing the perpetration of another terrible murder in Whitechapel. The news received speedy confirmation, and even the meagre particulars immediately obtainable left no doubt that this, the latest of the series of crimes which has for months past kept the East of London in a state of fear almost amounting to panic, exceeded in its cold-blooded fiendish atrocity any that have preceded it.

              Galveston Daily News 11 nov 1888


              I refer you to GOGMAGOG letter, post 51, where you yourself state that the procession was almost a quarter of a mile long and not shortened at all.


              "It will be seen from the statement which we publish elsewhere that the Lord Mayor's procession will be unusually short, and that it will contain no novel features".

              (This is why GOGMAGOG makes the point that it will be nearly a quarter of a mile long. He is emphasising that it will NOT be unusually short.)"

              From "Jack the Redeemer" Robin Odell:

              Naturally, Jack the Ripper was no more a social worker for the East End than he was a literary agent for those who came to write about his crimes. But both phenomena were evident after his three-month reign of terror in 1888. At the end of the Lord Mayor’s Show on 9 November, while doctors were still examining the brutally dissected remains of Mary Kelly, the citizens of the East End were entertained to a Meat Tea provided by the generosity of the Lord Mayor. Three thousand people crowded into the Great Assembly Hall at Mile End Road and, who knows, Jack the Ripper, his work completed, may have been among them. Each person tucked into half a pound of bread and butter, half a pound of cake, a large pork pie and a quart of tea.

              From:
              "Did Mary survive?" Des McKenna

              "Add to that, that coming from Fleet Street - a distance of a quarter of an hour - was a host of spectators who had deserted the Lord Mayor's show as well as others who had flocked in from further afield in horse-drawn vehicles, and all the local residents all wanting to see where the tragedy took place, squeezing tighter and tighter together so that soon all of Commercial Street was blocked, and through all this throng people like Maurice Lewis and Caroline Maxwell telling police and reporters alike that they had seen Mary Kelly alive that very morning. "

              As far as I can see, all the Mayor cut from the procession were the "tableaux vivants", people dressed and posing in representations of the classics, which were so popular at the time.

              C4
              Last edited by curious4; 05-31-2016, 06:40 AM.

              Comment


              • I don't know what you think the extract from the Irish Times adds to this discussion.

                And you seem to be confusing me with GOGMAGOG. He was trying to give the impression to the public that the procession would not be unusually short, not me. I have never stated that the procession was "a quarter of a mile long and not shortened at all" as you claim. I can assure you that there is no doubt whatsoever that it was a scaled down version of the usual procession in 1888. We can discuss this further but what's the point? It doesn't matter if it was the longest procession there had ever been and was 10 miles long. It still did not set out from the Guildhall until 12.30pm which is the only fact of any significance to this thread.

                Of the other extracts you have produced, Robin Odell has got it wrong (but it doesn't matter because the dinner was in the evening) while Des McKenna is obviously guessing but does not, in any event, support your assertion that "the crowds deserted the parade streets after the news of Mary's murder", a point about which I have no idea of its relevance since it has no bearing whatsoever upon the time of Mary's death.

                But at least I can see where you have been getting your misinformation from about Lord Mayor's Day in 1888. Can I respectfully suggest that you focus on primary sources (seeing as you don't seem to believe a word I say) and you might gain a better understanding.

                Comment


                • Well of course everyone else is wrong by your standards. The words brick wall, beating and head come to mind. I will draw a line under this now. If I want to argue with someone who swears black is white I'll turn to my two-year-old grandson. He at least has charm to recommend him!

                  C4

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by curious4 View Post
                    Well of course everyone else is wrong by your standards. The words brick wall, beating and head come to mind. I will draw a line under this now. If I want to argue with someone who swears black is white I'll turn to my two-year-old grandson. He at least has charm to recommend him!
                    I have no idea what you are talking about.

                    The facts are very simple.

                    The Lord Mayor's procession departed from the Guildhall at about 12.30pm, as scheduled, so anyone living in Whitechapel who wanted to go and see it was not likely to have left their house at any time before 11:00am.

                    The dinner for the destitute poor in the Mile End Road did not take place until the evening and was not connected with the procession that took place earlier that day.

                    Consequently, nothing about Lord Mayor's Day can tell us anything one way or the other about what time Mary Jane Kelly was murdered.

                    There isn't anything else to say on the subject that is relevant to this thread. If you have been beating your head against a brick wall it's only because you haven't understood what happened on Lord Mayor's Day in 1888.

                    Comment


                    • 1. Did Jack the Ripper have the ability to murder Mary Jane Kelly within 30 minutes?
                      2. Does the occurrence at the Britania seem prearranged?
                      3. How does Caroline Maxwell know that Mary Jane Kelly had been drinking the nite before?

                      Mr. Orsam

                      Working within the plausibility that Morris Lewis was telling or retelling the truth, these were the questions that I arrived upon.

                      1. Yes. He’s proven that he’s freakishly fast and uncommonly adept with his knife, and he seems to have acquired his frenzy to serve his purpose. For many of the [injuries] that are performed on Mary Jane Kelly, he is on record for nine minutes. The only additional [injuries] to Mary Kelly over Catherine Eddowes are the removal of the breasts, heart and leg muscles. I believe he retains some anatomical knowledge, but it is impossible to imagine to what extent or acuteness. I can’t rightly judge what an additional ten to 20 minutes would have meant to Jack the Ripper; however, it seems plausible that a person of his abilities could remove these parts within that time. Her breasts are basically shaved off. He may have ripped part of her lung to get to her heart; the act of removing her heart should have left his hands bloody. It’s only the removal of the parts of her leg that would appear to require the most time.
                      As for being naked, there is a good chance that he was on the bed with her at some point. All I know is that he or she removed her clothes, and he or she laid herself on the right side of the bed. Whether he overpowered her or not, I believe that she may have had some life in her when he sliced her throat based on the blood on the wall. Because the pool of blood is on the floor and not the bed, I imagine that he rolled her towards the wall with the heart pumping out. Rolling her over would require leaning over the bed or being on the bed & beside her. So, he may have wanted to take preventative measures against the bloodshed.
                      If he was interrupted, the calf cut might suggest it. It’s deep, and it will remain a mystery whether he had further intent on that part of her leg. The only reason that could be relevant is because the “after 10a” scenario requires him leaving by the front door and locking it behind him. It would take a bagful of tricks to leave by that door after being interrupted by Bowyer’s knock at her door for rent.
                      When Mary Jane Kelly’s murder is read as “’Catherine Eddowes’ in a house”, a murder after 10a seems plausible. He doesn’t seem to have worry of constables because there doesn’t seem to be many around on Dorset St. that morning. Morris Lewis is able to play pitch-and-toss for 2 hours before the report of a “copper”. And, you have already stated the altered responsibilities for the constables after 10a considering it was Lord Mayor’s Day. The aspect for why a constable may have made one last go-round his beat for the criminal element waiting at bay before a “big event” is something that I think has been covered with PC Mizen already.

                      All that… and the fire, of course

                      2. Revisiting Morris Lewis places Mary Jane Kelly at the Brittania pub-house after 10a. Her fortunes have changed from the previous nite because now she is afforded milk, a meal and a drink. The mystery is the encounter, and there is a strong presumption based on timeframes that this man is her killer. Considering that we are aware of Jack the Ripper’s intent based on historical hindsight, it’s the locale that makes the encounter indirectly seem prearranged. Prearranged or else the basic reality of a chance encounter stands:
                      Jack the Ripper solicited a prostitute with an apartment shortly after 10a from a pub-house. She had to have an apartment because he couldn’t murder her in public during broad daylight. Mary Jane Kelly was unfortunate to be the prostitute with the apartment who was soliciting herself in the pub-house that morning.

                      3. Revisiting Morris Lewis tends to revisit Caroline Maxwell also. “Fetching milk’ must have been akin to the description given by the milkman in the Elizabeth Stride case. Morris Lewis doesn’t report Mary Jane Kelly returning with the milk, and there was no milk found at the crime scene. In fact, Morris Lewis never reports Mary Jane Kelly returning during his 2-hour game nor does he report anyone leaving her room. We do know that, after she leaves, Caroline Maxwell reports seeing her on Dorset St. Again… from historical hindsight, we know that Mary Jane Kelly had been drinking the previous nite. Caroline Maxwell would not have known unless Mary Jane Kelly had told her.

                      RStD
                      there,s nothing new, only the unexplored

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