Did a police officer see a ripper suspect, right after the 2nd of the double murders?

[Trevor Marriott]

And how many men there were carrying a dissecting scalpel, had trained as a surgeon, had written about disemboweling women,

'And its paunch [stomach] was rent
Like a brasted [bursting] drum;
And the blubbered fat
From its belly doth come
It was a stream ran bloodily'

and were seeking out a prostitute/lover who had fled them after a massive argument?

But a dissecting scalpel was not used to inflict the injuries, a knife with a blade of at least 6 inches was suggested.

How many people write books about murder but never commit one ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Richard Patterson]

Along with thousands of other men !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

And how many men there were carrying a dissecting scalpel, had trained as a surgeon, had written about disemboweling women,

'And its paunch [stomach] was rent
Like a brasted [bursting] drum;
And the blubbered fat
From its belly doth come
It was a stream ran bloodily'

and were seeking out a prostitute/lover who had fled them after a massive argument?

[Trevor Marriott]

Many years ago, while researching my “Paradox 2000”, non-fiction book on the Catholic poet, Thompson, as a Jack the Ripper, I referenced, “Strange Harp, Strange Symphony The Life of Francis Thompson”. This is a 1967 biography written by John Walsh. I recently purchased this book and was re-reading it when I found in, Chapter 3, page 50, Walsh had written on where Thompson was living, during his time of vagrancy until the end of 1888. Walsh states,

‘When neither food nor bed was available, he would, along with the other derelicts, often gravitate to one of the recently established Salvation Army shelters, or the Catholic Refuge in Providence Row. It was the later place that Thompson supplied, evidently from his own experience, a harrowing picture’

Walsh then quoted Thompson’s description of the Providence Row shelter. Thompson spoke of the “nightly crowd of haggard men,” who with, “sickening suspense and fear” waited to be admitted. Thompson’s account of his experiences in the Providence Row shelter was to be included in an essay, but before it was published, his editor removed all references to this shelter.

The first Salvation Army shelter to be opened was in 1888 at 21 West India Dock Road in Limehouse, soon after this, another Salvation shelter opened up on; 272 Whitechapel Road, Whitechapel. Much more important, in placing Thompson in Whitechapel during the time of the murders, is that Walsh specifies the Providence Row refuge. This homeless shelter for Catholics was opposite the western end of Dorset Street at 50 Crispin Street. It operated from this location from 1868, and today is still standing. That Thompson regularly sought this shelter is is proof that he was not just in the East End, during the murders, but living in Whitechapel, in the heartland of the Jack the Ripper murders.

Along with thousands of other men !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Richard Patterson]

Good morning Richard,

What is your source material please for you stating in your articles and posts that Francis Thompson was in the East End, near Whitechapel, the docklands or Limehouse?

I ask because I find Thompson an interesting person and having now read three (3) biographies of him, Thomson 1912, Meynell 1913 and Shaw 1967, there's nothing in those books about the East End. The places mentioned in relation to Francis Thompson are all in another part of London.

Roy

Many years ago, while researching my “Paradox 2000”, non-fiction book on the Catholic poet, Thompson, as a Jack the Ripper, I referenced, “Strange Harp, Strange Symphony The Life of Francis Thompson”. This is a 1967 biography written by John Walsh. I recently purchased this book and was re-reading it when I found in, Chapter 3, page 50, Walsh had written on where Thompson was living, during his time of vagrancy until the end of 1888. Walsh states,

‘When neither food nor bed was available, he would, along with the other derelicts, often gravitate to one of the recently established Salvation Army shelters, or the Catholic Refuge in Providence Row. It was the later place that Thompson supplied, evidently from his own experience, a harrowing picture’

Walsh then quoted Thompson’s description of the Providence Row shelter. Thompson spoke of the “nightly crowd of haggard men,” who with, “sickening suspense and fear” waited to be admitted. Thompson’s account of his experiences in the Providence Row shelter was to be included in an essay, but before it was published, his editor removed all references to this shelter.

The first Salvation Army shelter to be opened was in 1888 at 21 West India Dock Road in Limehouse, soon after this, another Salvation shelter opened up on; 272 Whitechapel Road, Whitechapel. Much more important, in placing Thompson in Whitechapel during the time of the murders, is that Walsh specifies the Providence Row refuge. This homeless shelter for Catholics was opposite the western end of Dorset Street at 50 Crispin Street. It operated from this location from 1868, and today is still standing. That Thompson regularly sought this shelter is is proof that he was not just in the East End, during the murders, but living in Whitechapel, in the heartland of the Jack the Ripper murders.

[Richard Patterson]

Mitre Square is not within Whites domain. Any surveillance operation on Mitre Square would have been conducted by City detectives unless a specific request was made by the Met for their own men.

If the latter was in effect, then Watkins and Harvey would have been briefed, otherwise there would have been a risk of compromise. Any minor criminal activity may have been overlooked, however a serious crime such as murder, would have been acted upon, be it at the time or subsequent reporting. This event, if, true, would have required a Special Report, and included in the City file, and subsequent further summary reports. It is not mentioned.

Surveillance of Fenian activity would predominantly be taken by Special Branch or, if required, CID from Central Office Executive Branch, not local CID men such as White, as such criminals were usually recognised by the former, due to long periods of specialist work undertaken by SB and the EO.

The White story is suspect, and may be a confusion of second hand information.

Monty

Thanks for the clarification. I agree that the White story is suspect. Only, seeing a man walk past is not a serious crime. Perhaps, despite the detective feeling that the man was the murderer after the fact, this was not enough to warrant action. He did not after all see the man commit the murder or with the victim.

[Monty]

If it is correct that the article the People's Journal, 26th September 1919, attributes the sighting of the Ripper to be by Stephen White. The jurisdiction may have been within White's domain, but I doubt he, or those commanding him, would have risked his fellow operatives and the secrecy of an ongoing surveillance, by having him appear at the inquests of the Ripper's victims.

Mitre Square is not within Whites domain. Any surveillance operation on Mitre Square would have been conducted by City detectives unless a specific request was made by the Met for their own men.

If the latter was in effect, then Watkins and Harvey would have been briefed, otherwise there would have been a risk of compromise. Any minor criminal activity may have been overlooked, however a serious crime such as murder, would have been acted upon, be it at the time or subsequent reporting. This event, if, true, would have required a Special Report, and included in the City file, and subsequent further summary reports. It is not mentioned.

Surveillance of Fenian activity would predominantly be taken by Special Branch or, if required, CID from Central Office Executive Branch, not local CID men such as White, as such criminals were usually recognised by the former, due to long periods of specialist work undertaken by SB and the EO.

The White story is suspect, and may be a confusion of second hand information.

Monty

[Richard Patterson]

We are talking about Stephen White yes?

Monty

If it is correct that the article the People's Journal, 26th September 1919, attributes the sighting of the Ripper to be by Stephen White. The jurisdiction may have been within White's domain, but I doubt he, or those commanding him, would have risked his fellow operatives and the secrecy of an ongoing surveillance, by having him appear at the inquests of the Ripper's victims.

[Richard Patterson]

Hello Richard.

"Let’s have another look at Mitre Square. As I have already explained, it would have been a cul-de-sac for anyone trying to escape if we place White’s men there. Both the East and West entrances were patrolled by police."

Mitre was NO cul-de-sac--but Dutfield's yard might qualify.

Cheers.
LC

As I have said in post #16, on this thread.

'It could have well been Dutfield’s Yard. This would not lesson the likelihood that White spoke with Francis Thompson.'

[lynn cates]

Special Branch

Hello (again) Richard.

"Possibly he was outside his jurisdiction and did want to have his cover blown or have the Fenian/anarchist knowing details of the secret surveillance."

Why would a beat copper do this? Both groups were under surveillance, but surely Special Branch would have been the logical choice?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

cul-de-sac

Hello Richard.

"Let’s have another look at Mitre Square. As I have already explained, it would have been a cul-de-sac for anyone trying to escape if we place White’s men there. Both the East and West entrances were patrolled by police."

Mitre was NO cul-de-sac--but Dutfield's yard might qualify.

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

Possibly he was outside his jurisdiction and did want to have his cover blown or have the Fenian/anarchist knowing details of the secret surveillance.

We are talking about Stephen White yes?

Monty

[Richard Patterson]

Why?

Monty

Possibly he was outside his jurisdiction and did want to have his cover blown or have the Fenian/anarchist knowing details of the secret surveillance.

[Monty]

This, an officer working outside his 'assigned' area, could also have been a major factor for why this story could not be told until many years later and a week after White's death.

Why?

Monty

[Richard Patterson]

That being the major factor in eliminating Mitre Square from this story.

Monty

This, an officer working outside his 'assigned' area, could also have been a major factor for why this story could not be told until many years later and a week after White's death.

[Monty]

He is a Met officer. Mitre sq is City Police.

That being the major factor in eliminating Mitre Square from this story.

Monty