What did Cadosch hear ?

[lynn cates]

Yost

Hello GUT. No need to ignore. Here is the original thinking.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-yostlong.html

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

argument

Hello MB. Thanks.

"There is an equally convincing argument that Annie was long dead by then."

I'd LOVE to hear it.

Cheers.
LC

[Ginger]

I lean towards that the "no" was from Chapman while speaking and not "No!" exclamation at being attacked.

I'm not convinced that it was Chapman that he heard, but I strongly believe that the 'no' (or possibly 'know') was said in a conversational tone, simply due to the fact that he doesn't characterize the tone of voice in any way. Had he heard an exclamation, I think he'd have said so.

[Bridewell]

Firstly, many thanks to Moonbegger for spelling the name Cadosch correctly in the title of this thread.

Hello Qlder. And the "No" would be emitted when he looks up and sees Albert emerging from the privy?

Cheers.
LC

I'm pretty confident that the killer couldn't have seen Albert Cadosch emerging from the privy, although I guess he might have heard him.

[GUT]

Hello GUT.
Re Post #9 "... The other possibility is that it Wasn't Annie that he heard say "no" but rather someone else who had gone there for the same purpose and after that couple left Chapman and Jack arrived."
The 5 to 6 minute interval involved makes that a fairly remote possibility, wouldn't you say? Although there is the issue of Mrs Long's evidence that she saw (probably) Annie in the street with a man at 5:30.

Exactly, if we accept the evidence we have instead of ignoring the bits that don't suit and putting strange interpretations on other it must be on the cards.

[Abby Normal]

Cadosche in his own words at the Inquest;

"On Saturday, Sept. 8, I got up about a quarter past five in the morning, and went into the yard. It was then about twenty minutes past five, I should think. As I returned towards the back door I heard a voice say "No" just as I was going through the door. It was not in our yard, but I should think it came from the yard of No. 29. I, however, cannot say on which side it came from. I went indoors, but returned to the yard about three or four minutes afterwards. While coming back I heard a sort of a fall against the fence which divides my yard from that of 29. It seemed as if something touched the fence suddenly".

I would think that the "fall" against the fence in #29 solidifies the notion that what he heard originally also came from #29, and when considering the timing of Annies discovery and the time Cadosche hears these sounds its virtually impossible that IF he honestly testified, the sounds were not of Annie and her killer.

Its why I contend Mrs Long did not see Annie, and why I contend that the doctors were inaccurate with their estimates of how long she had lain there. Richardson would have had to have seen a body there if it was at around 4:45, and he didn't.

And to imagine that the sounds were from someone or a couple preceding Annie into the yard, I need only remind us of the discovery time. All that was done to Annie must have taken nearly a quarter to a half hour...even Phillips said as much.

Cheers

Thanks for posting that Michael

Well, since we can see the words now from the witness himself, I lean towards that the "no" was from Chapman while speaking and not "No!" exclamation at being attacked. And since he described the sound as something "falling" against the fence-I think it was probably her body brushing/hitting/bumping the fence as she was lowered to the ground.

But my what active imaginations some have on here!

[moonbegger]

Hello all , Vary varied and interesting posts ..

Defective Det

Is it not possible that some poor local woman may have accidentally stumbled upon Annie Chapman's corpse, felt about it in the dark for a moment, said "no!" in reaction to this, then took flight in a panic?

This is also my view DD .. ( Or close to it )

Lynn ,

. No, not possible as it was not dark when she was killed. It was AFTER sun up.

We cannot know that as a fact Lynn . There is an equally convincing argument that Annie was long dead by then .

A simple modus tollens might disabuse you of this notion.

Besides, why could they not have been engaged in conversation at least part of that time?

My point being lynn , time was of the essence , he could have been disturbed at any moment (ie) Cadosch , outhouses (ect) i really don't see our man as a Procrastinating chatty Killer , All his conversation would have been done before he gets to the kill site .

Rosella .

How do we know that "No" was the last word of the conversation between Ripper and victim, (if it was Annie and JTR in the back yard of no. 29?) It was the last word Cadosch heard as he was going indoors, but there could have been another couple of minutes of conversation for all we know!

Like I said to Lynn , I don't think he would .

Qlder ,

SAT, SEP 8, 1888 5:20am Cadoche went into the backyard of #27. Upon his return to the house, he heard voices quite close to him. Of which, he could only make out the word "No."
SAT, SEP 8, 1888 5:25am Sun rose
SAT, SEP 8, 1888 c.5:25am Cadoche re-entered his backyard and heard a fall against the fence. Cadoche returned to the house and prepared to leave for work.

Yes , but he hears the "Fall against the fence" upon leaving the outhouse for the second time

Harry ,

It would also depend on how it was spoken. Was it an exclamation or not?

Or maybe even the word itself Harry ! "No" or "Know" ... (ie) Check her pockets she wont "Know" !!

Moonbegger .

[K-453]

What if the sounds were echoes?

Echoes often have played tricks on me when I was surrounded by buildings of different size and shape, and with gaps between them where sounds could pass through.

The footage of Hanbury Street from 1967 shows, the backyard is narrow, with a huge wall at the end of it, and two stone sheds squeezed into it. On its other end was the row of houses.

(I tried to find that footage on YouTube, but couldn't.)

Would be interesting to know if Cadosh only heard the fall against the fence, or if he also saw the fence shaking.

[Michael W Richards]

Cadosche in his own words at the Inquest;

"On Saturday, Sept. 8, I got up about a quarter past five in the morning, and went into the yard. It was then about twenty minutes past five, I should think. As I returned towards the back door I heard a voice say "No" just as I was going through the door. It was not in our yard, but I should think it came from the yard of No. 29. I, however, cannot say on which side it came from. I went indoors, but returned to the yard about three or four minutes afterwards. While coming back I heard a sort of a fall against the fence which divides my yard from that of 29. It seemed as if something touched the fence suddenly".

I would think that the "fall" against the fence in #29 solidifies the notion that what he heard originally also came from #29, and when considering the timing of Annies discovery and the time Cadosche hears these sounds its virtually impossible that IF he honestly testified, the sounds were not of Annie and her killer.

Its why I contend Mrs Long did not see Annie, and why I contend that the doctors were inaccurate with their estimates of how long she had lain there. Richardson would have had to have seen a body there if it was at around 4:45, and he didn't.

And to imagine that the sounds were from someone or a couple preceding Annie into the yard, I need only remind us of the discovery time. All that was done to Annie must have taken nearly a quarter to a half hour...even Phillips said as much.

Cheers

[Abby Normal]

How do we know that "No" was the last word of the conversation between Ripper and victim, (if it was Annie and JTR in the back yard of no. 29?) It was the last word Cadosch heard as he was going indoors, but there could have been another couple of minutes of conversation for all we know!

It's always been presumed that the "No" was an exclamation of alarm on Annie's part as she saw something in her killer's eyes or felt his hands getting near her neck, but it needn't have been like that at all.

this, or it was an exclamation as she was being attacked, and the sound he heard against the fence was not Annie hitting the fence, but the ripper bumping it as he "worked" about her body.

[Harry D]

How do we know that "No" was the last word of the conversation between Ripper and victim, (if it was Annie and JTR in the back yard of no. 29?) It was the last word Cadosch heard as he was going indoors, but there could have been another couple of minutes of conversation for all we know!

It's always been presumed that the "No" was an exclamation of alarm on Annie's part as she saw something in her killer's eyes or felt his hands getting near her neck, but it needn't have been like that at all.

It would also depend on how it was spoken. Was it an exclamation or not?

[Qlder]

Given Cadosch was unwell, heading towards the privy and negotiating a step into the yard, I believe he must have been looking downwards as he went back out the door about 5:25am. I know I certainly hunch myself a bit and tend to look downwards when moving about while unwell. So, I suggest that Jack may have been just about to launch himself over the fence when he sees the door opening and has to abort mid-leap, hence the falling contact with the fence, and the subsequent silence as Jack waits with bated breathe to see if there is any reaction on the #27 side of the fence. Albert is too preoccupied with his own worries, so Jack gets to vanish shortly thereafter.
The voices AC heard were from his earlier excursion to the privy about 5 minutes before.

(Getting past my bedtime here in Queensland. Sorry I can't stay. Will check back tomorrow.)

[lynn cates]

context

Hello Qlder. Thanks.

Trying to ascertain when you think killer sees Albert.

"No" was, according to the story, only one word heard of many. We need some sort of context for this.

I'm game.

Cheers.
LC

[Qlder]

Hello GUT.
Re Post #9 "... The other possibility is that it Wasn't Annie that he heard say "no" but rather someone else who had gone there for the same purpose and after that couple left Chapman and Jack arrived."
The 5 to 6 minute interval involved makes that a fairly remote possibility, wouldn't you say? Although there is the issue of Mrs Long's evidence that she saw (probably) Annie in the street with a man at 5:30.

[Qlder]

Post #7
Hello Qlder. And the "No" would be emitted when he looks up and sees Albert emerging from the privy?
Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn.
In reply: No, no, no! Oh, no!

... Albert Cadosch, a young carpenter living at 27 Hanbury Street walks into his back yard probably to use the outhouse. Passing the five foot tall wooden fence which separates his yard from that of number 29, he hears voices quite close. The only word he can make out is a woman saying "No!" He then heard something falling against the fence.

This bit from Casebook's Victim's section on Annie Chapman is somewhat misleading. I was addressing Moonbeggar's proposed six minute interval between hearing a woman's voice say, "No" and the noise of something against the fence. Going to the Casebook Timeline for Annie Chapman gives a better sense of how things unfolded and accords with Moonbeggar's proposition:

SAT, SEP 8, 1888 5:20am Cadoche went into the backyard of #27. Upon his return to the house, he heard voices quite close to him. Of which, he could only make out the word "No."
SAT, SEP 8, 1888 5:25am Sun rose
SAT, SEP 8, 1888 c.5:25am Cadoche re-entered his backyard and heard a fall against the fence. Cadoche returned to the house and prepared to leave for work.

Sure, my scenario is mere speculation, but I think it is within the realms of the possible, given the facts as we know them.