Victims seen with Suspects just before death

[Fleetwood Mac]

Richard, as I believe Hutch I like your theory. However, just before Astrakhan man approached Mary she asked Hutch for 'the lend of sixpence'. Would she not have thought she would get more money from her new well-dressed friend when he turned up ? Or was she planning to ditch A man in favour of her old mate Hutchinson if he had some cash?

Considering they were so poor, I find it difficult to believe Mary thought Hutchinson would be able to lend her a few bob. Presumably this fella who walked all the way to Kent to find work wasn't in the business of handing out money hand over fist to acquaintances. Added to that, with Mary being well behind in her repayments it's fair to say that no one else would lend her a few bob either.

The chances of Mary walking down the street and setting eyes upon someone thinking: "he'll lend me a few bob knowing I'm good for it", particularly when most of these people didn't have a pot to piss in between them and were doing their utmost just to survive, is pretty slim.

[Rosella]

Yes, I think cheap second hand razors were probably among items sold on street stalls. Very few men were completely clean shaven. Of course some men have very slight facial hair and have difficulty growing a mo. A light wispy one is about all that can be managed.

[miss marple]

Rubbish. Many Victorian men of all classes had mustaches. Just look at the photographs. A mustache is not an indecater of economic value. If a man had a cut throat razor, he could still grow a moustache it does not need maintaining. If shaving was expensive every Easter Ender would have had a full beard but they did 'nt.

Miss Marple

[RipperNoob]

I have to wonder:
Many of the accounts mentioned here give Jack as a man with a small mustache. To maintain a mustache, especially a small one, takes grooming, work, shaving often. From what I understand, Whitechapel was horribly poor, and in 1888, the safety razor wasn't common (especially for a poor fellow). Which meant keeping that small mustache from becoming a beard required the user of a barber-surgeon. While it is but a little thing, perhaps Jack having a small mustache, rather than say, a fuzzy face or full beard, points to his economic level.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Rosella.
Mary Kelly was always on the cadge, there are reports of her visiting Lodging houses in the street, and pleading poverty, that she had no money to pay her rent, and one man said , any money she obtained went on Booze anyway.
Actually this may give credit to Mrs Maxwell's account of ''Seeing her in the lodging house''.
I would suggest that a premeditated meeting with Mr A, or not, she still would not turn down a chance to obtain money..
Regards Richard.

[Rosella]

Hi..
It was the eve of the Lord mayors show,it was rumoured that Kelly wished to attend, what is entirely possible is that Mr A, had premeditated his style of dress, in a effort to convince Mary that if he spent the night with her, they could set off in the morning....indeed it is entirely possible that the whole meeting[ witnessed by Hutchinson] was pre arranged earlier that night, and her killer was not dressed like that earlier in in the evening, which would be not surprising , hanging around in local pubs...
So speculating....he leaves Kelly to venture home alone, returns to his abode, dresses in fancy attire, meets Kelly at a pre arranged spot..as it would not be safe descending down Dorset street unaccompanied, and killed her some time later, after she fell asleep, and he was certain, that Hutchinson was not going to report his sighting....
Entirely possible...
Regards Richard...

Richard, as I believe Hutch I like your theory. However, just before Astrakhan man approached Mary she asked Hutch for 'the lend of sixpence'. Would she not have thought she would get more money from her new well-dressed friend when he turned up ? Or was she planning to ditch A man in favour of her old mate Hutchinson if he had some cash?

[GUT]

What you have posted Richard is a story that is loosely based upon a questionable sighting,..I think we need to define what we have better than "possible", or "perhaps likely".

We could at the very least use a witness that saw Mary leave her room after 11:45pm to help your "possible" theory, problem is there is no such witness. There is however 2 witnesses that stated Marys room was dark and quiet by 1:30 am, and this was stated by witnesses that left and entered the court the exact same way Mary would have had to if she had left the room. They didn't see her enter Dorset from the court, nor did they see or hear Mary outside on the street.

Cheers

And there are two witnesses who saw her the following morning?

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Just a shame there's little chance that Schwartz's man was the Ripper. 'Broad Shoulders' was reportedly trying to drag Stride onto the street, not into the yard and was creating a ruckus in public in front of at least two witnesses. Not exactly the actions of a stealthy killer.

I totally agree with you.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Thanks.

Well, if it WERE 5.30, why did it take her 30 minutes to arrive there? Many a time I've mistaken a quarter hour chime for a half. Common mistake.

And if so, both fit like hand in glove.

Cheers.
LC

One difference between you and Mrs Long Lynn is that she didn't hedge her remarks as you did above, allowing for possible error. She was sure it was 5:30....just like Louis was sure it was 1 when he arrived, and PC Long was sure the cloth wasn't there when he passed the spot at around 2:20.

Out of the above 3 examples, only 1 really deserves a closer look based upon other witnesses in the immediate area. Louis. Fanny has a corroborated statement that places her at her door between 12:55and 1am, and she mentions nothing about seeing or hearing the uncorroborated Louis Diemshitz arrive by cart and horse. Something that would have made clatter on cobblestones at the very least.

Cheers Lynn

[Michael W Richards]

Hi..
It was the eve of the Lord mayors show,it was rumoured that Kelly wished to attend, what is entirely possible is that Mr A, had premeditated his style of dress, in a effort to convince Mary that if he spent the night with her, they could set off in the morning....indeed it is entirely possible that the whole meeting[ witnessed by Hutchinson] was pre arranged earlier that night, and her killer was not dressed like that earlier in in the evening, which would be not surprising , hanging around in local pubs...
So speculating....he leaves Kelly to venture home alone, returns to his abode, dresses in fancy attire, meets Kelly at a pre arranged spot..as it would not be safe descending down Dorset street unaccompanied, and killed her some time later, after she fell asleep, and he was certain, that Hutchinson was not going to report his sighting....
Entirely possible...
Regards Richard...

What you have posted Richard is a story that is loosely based upon a questionable sighting,..I think we need to define what we have better than "possible", or "perhaps likely".

We could at the very least use a witness that saw Mary leave her room after 11:45pm to help your "possible" theory, problem is there is no such witness. There is however 2 witnesses that stated Marys room was dark and quiet by 1:30 am, and this was stated by witnesses that left and entered the court the exact same way Mary would have had to if she had left the room. They didn't see her enter Dorset from the court, nor did they see or hear Mary outside on the street.

Cheers

[richardnunweek]

Hi..
It was the eve of the Lord mayors show,it was rumoured that Kelly wished to attend, what is entirely possible is that Mr A, had premeditated his style of dress, in a effort to convince Mary that if he spent the night with her, they could set off in the morning....indeed it is entirely possible that the whole meeting[ witnessed by Hutchinson] was pre arranged earlier that night, and her killer was not dressed like that earlier in in the evening, which would be not surprising , hanging around in local pubs...
So speculating....he leaves Kelly to venture home alone, returns to his abode, dresses in fancy attire, meets Kelly at a pre arranged spot..as it would not be safe descending down Dorset street unaccompanied, and killed her some time later, after she fell asleep, and he was certain, that Hutchinson was not going to report his sighting....
Entirely possible...
Regards Richard...

[Rosella]

Hutch's description of Mr Astrakhan is certainly of a prosperous looking individual. However, 'shabby' is a very subjective judgement.

[Damaso Marte]

Not to play into lynn's theories too much, but the obvious discrepancy is between Long on one side and Lawende/Cox on the other side: Lawende and Cox could easily have seen the same fair-mustached, fair-skinned man. Long's description of "dark" is at odds with this.

Of course, Long also said she didn't see the man's face.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I tend to agree with you Sir John...but I fear we're in a minority...

The other angle it also the fact that Schwartz didn't speak English. So he didn't know about the murder from the papers.

It must have been from a conversation with his family/ colleagues. That's how he learned where it happened, when, and who was the victim.

Then the decision to get involved by going to the police.

Schwartz has nothing to gain from that, except the feeling that he has to do the right thing.

Doesn't mean he cannot make mistakes, but being called Lipski, and then chased by pipe man whom he didn't know if he was with Stride's assailant. That has to put a good print in his memory.

[harry]

Although there can be some doubt as to the exactness of times given,I believe each witness to have been time conscious enough to satisfy the authorities.Brown's time of 12.45 am,corresponds with Schwartz time of 12.45,give or take an error of a couple of minutes,for both to be believed.