Was She Wrong?

[Doctored Whatsit]

Like George, I am not absolutely convinced that the body was Kelly - but I retain an open mind. However, Maxwell, under normal considerations would have easily been the most reliable of witnesses in the entire JtR catalogue. She was on first name terms with Kelly, didn't just see her, but spoke to her, she can be fairly accurate about the times, was spot on about her clothing, and made her statement just a few hours after the event. Where is the scope for error? We generally accept extremely vague observations by Long and Lawende, but totally dismiss Maxwell.

I did not realise that Dr Phillips had suggested that Kelly had been dead for 5 or 6 hours as per Herlock above.

Although Dr Phillips arrived at Millers Court at about 11. 15am, he was unable to enter the premises until about 1. 30 pm, when the lock was broken. If he said ToD was 5 or 6 hours earlier, then we could have a murder as late as 8. 30 am without querying the accuracy of his estimate, which we know would have been a bit approximate.

[GBinOz]

This thread was inspired by a comment from Doc on the Kelly Timeline thread.


Was Caroline Maxwell wrong? Philip Sugden was convinced of it:

The testimony of Mrs Maxwell is an unanswered riddle. Was she lying, drunk, or simply mistaken? On the first occasion she supposedly saw Mary, at 8.30, they conversed across the street. On the second Mary was standing about twenty-five yards away. At either distance Mrs Maxwell should have been able to recognize Mary and it seems more likely that she confused the date than the person. Whatever the answer, all we can say for certain is that her testimony was wrong.

Was she though?

Dr Phillips arrived at Miller’s Court at around 11.15 (Sugden said that he’d arrived at 10.45) said that she had been dead some 5 or 6 hours - so 4.45-5.45.

Dr Bond didn’t see the body until 2.00pm. Rigor was setting in, which he said normally occurred after 6-12 hours after death - 2.00am-8am

When we look at the two dissenting witnesses, Maurice Lewis and Caroline Maxwell we see that Lewis said that he first saw Mary leave her room at 8.00 and return a few moments later which ties in with Mary telling Maxwell (at 8.00-8.30) that she had just been for a drink. Then we have Caroline seeing Mary outside The Britannia at 8.45 with the coincidence of Lewis claiming to have seen her in The Britannia drinking in a group at 10.00.

That she was drinking at 10.00 but was then found in her room, in the state that she was discovered in, just 45 minutes later, isn’t possible.

Caroline Maxwell gave her testimony on the day of the murder so the suggestion that she might have got the day wrong doesn’t sound particularly likely to me. She set the time by her husband finishing his work as a lodging house deputy. A bit of leeway should always be allowed, and Caroline herself gives 30 minutes, so it’s difficult to see how she could have been signification further out in her time. It’s possible that she had consulted her husband as to the time and he had given her an incorrect one (maybe it was 7.00 instead of 8.00?)

The suggestion that the body wasn’t Mary has never carried any weight with me personally. Unless we get in conspiracy territory then Mary had no reason for keeping quiet when a body was found on her bed (she was hardly going to be suspected of the murder after all) One suggestion has been that she took advantage of the opportunity to ‘disappear’ to avoid her rent arrears but where would this penniless woman have gone and how could she have known that someone wouldn’t inform the police of this subterfuge? Would she have left her meagre possessions? Why hadn’t she ‘done a runner’ up until then?

The cry of ‘‘murder’’ is interesting but how significant was it? Sarah Lewis heard the cry at ‘nearly four’ which sounded “at our door.” She was across the court, to the left of Kelly’s room, and upstairs. Elizabeth Prater heard a cry at 3.30-3.45 (so no issue on times) but she lived directly above Mary and felt that the cry came from the court. Surely she would have known it if it had emanated from the room directly beneath her own? It seems likely that there was a cry of murder but are we just assuming that it was Mary? As far as we know, none of the other victims had cried out so is it really likely that the killer would have allowed Mary to call out; potentially trapping him in that room? Also, being in doors, and with Mary lying on the bed, how much easier for him to have strangled her into silence before proceeding. Whatever time Mary was actually killed I’m wary of accepting the cry of “murder” as coming from Mary.

Bond gives 2.00-8.00. We know the unreliability of the methods of fixing a ToD and how often would the doctors have experience a corpse so horrendously treated as Mary was, adding to the uncertainty. And then if we consider the possibility of Mrs Maxwell getting an incorrect time from her husband (maybe she was an hour out and had seen Mary at 7.00-7.30?)

Perhaps the most difficult question is, how could Maurice Lewis have supposedly seen her in The Britannia at 10.00?


I’m not supporting any theory or claiming to know the truth because I don’t but my question is…are we too quick to dismiss the testimony of Caroline Maxwell?

Hi Herlock,

Maxwell's statement was accepted by Abberline, and never varied, unlike other witnesses. I can't see any reason to doubt her. She is supported by other witnesses, some of whom may have been numbered among those who were prepared to testify but were denied by the coroner finishing the inquest prematurely. The milk vendor supported her timeline, and there was no reason that I can discern for her to have lied.

As you may be aware, I number amongst the heretics that consider that the body found in the room was not that of Mary Jane Kelly. Maxwell testified that Mary told her that she (Kelly) had thrown up in the street, and Maxwell testified that she had observed said vomit. Kelly told Maxwell that she was under the effects of excessive drink, so it is reasonable to conclude that to contents of her stomach ended up on the pavement, to be observed by Maxwell. But the autopsy recorded that there were undigested contents in the stomach. How could this be??

The answer is that Kelly was allowing her room to be used by other prostitutes, which is why Barnett left, and why McCarthy allowed her to retain her room, having struck a deal with her to share in the profits of her endeavours. So Kelly returns to her room and discovers that whoever has been allowed to use her room has been murdered. She staggers from the room, after having viewed the body, and throws up in the street just as Maxwell approaches. She returns to her room and, seeing the opportunity to start a new life, changes into the victims clothing, leaving the clothing that Maxwell saw her wearing in the room.

That is my current opinion FWIW.

Cheers, George

[FrankO]

As far as we know, none of the other victims had cried out so is it really likely that the killer would have allowed Mary to call out; potentially trapping him in that room? Also, being in doors, and with Mary lying on the bed, how much easier for him to have strangled her into silence before proceeding.

Hi Mike,

I have no answer for you, at this point at least, regarding Carloine Maxwell, just wanted to react to your quote above.

While we don't know whether the cry of murder emamated from MJK's lips, we do know that she was attacked in a different way than the other victims. While the initial attack on the other victims was launched while they were on their feet, MJK was attacked while she was lying on her bed. And the description of the cut on her right thumb tells us that she received it while she was still alive. An attack fitting the evidence would be that she woke up by a movement of her killer on the bed, and the only thing she could do before it was too late was to raise her right arm in defense and, possibly, utter one cry of murder before her throat was cut. So, while it would seem much easier for him to have strangled her, he doesn't seem to have done that.

Cheers,
Frank

[Jon Guy]

Was she wrong ?

Maxwell`s description of what Kelly was wearing does match what was later found on the chair in Kelly`s room.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This thread was inspired by a comment from Doc on the Kelly Timeline thread.


Was Caroline Maxwell wrong? Philip Sugden was convinced of it:

The testimony of Mrs Maxwell is an unanswered riddle. Was she lying, drunk, or simply mistaken? On the first occasion she supposedly saw Mary, at 8.30, they conversed across the street. On the second Mary was standing about twenty-five yards away. At either distance Mrs Maxwell should have been able to recognize Mary and it seems more likely that she confused the date than the person. Whatever the answer, all we can say for certain is that her testimony was wrong.

Was she though?

Dr Phillips arrived at Miller’s Court at around 11.15 (Sugden said that he’d arrived at 10.45) said that she had been dead some 5 or 6 hours - so 4.45-5.45.

Dr Bond didn’t see the body until 2.00pm. Rigor was setting in, which he said normally occurred after 6-12 hours after death - 2.00am-8am

When we look at the two dissenting witnesses, Maurice Lewis and Caroline Maxwell we see that Lewis said that he first saw Mary leave her room at 8.00 and return a few moments later which ties in with Mary telling Maxwell (at 8.00-8.30) that she had just been for a drink. Then we have Caroline seeing Mary outside The Britannia at 8.45 with the coincidence of Lewis claiming to have seen her in The Britannia drinking in a group at 10.00.

That she was drinking at 10.00 but was then found in her room, in the state that she was discovered in, just 45 minutes later, isn’t possible.

Caroline Maxwell gave her testimony on the day of the murder so the suggestion that she might have got the day wrong doesn’t sound particularly likely to me. She set the time by her husband finishing his work as a lodging house deputy. A bit of leeway should always be allowed, and Caroline herself gives 30 minutes, so it’s difficult to see how she could have been signification further out in her time. It’s possible that she had consulted her husband as to the time and he had given her an incorrect one (maybe it was 7.00 instead of 8.00?)

The suggestion that the body wasn’t Mary has never carried any weight with me personally. Unless we get in conspiracy territory then Mary had no reason for keeping quiet when a body was found on her bed (she was hardly going to be suspected of the murder after all) One suggestion has been that she took advantage of the opportunity to ‘disappear’ to avoid her rent arrears but where would this penniless woman have gone and how could she have known that someone wouldn’t inform the police of this subterfuge? Would she have left her meagre possessions? Why hadn’t she ‘done a runner’ up until then?

The cry of ‘‘murder’’ is interesting but how significant was it? Sarah Lewis heard the cry at ‘nearly four’ which sounded “at our door.” She was across the court, to the left of Kelly’s room, and upstairs. Elizabeth Prater heard a cry at 3.30-3.45 (so no issue on times) but she lived directly above Mary and felt that the cry came from the court. Surely she would have known it if it had emanated from the room directly beneath her own? It seems likely that there was a cry of murder but are we just assuming that it was Mary? As far as we know, none of the other victims had cried out so is it really likely that the killer would have allowed Mary to call out; potentially trapping him in that room? Also, being in doors, and with Mary lying on the bed, how much easier for him to have strangled her into silence before proceeding. Whatever time Mary was actually killed I’m wary of accepting the cry of “murder” as coming from Mary.

Bond gives 2.00-8.00. We know the unreliability of the methods of fixing a ToD and how often would the doctors have experience a corpse so horrendously treated as Mary was, adding to the uncertainty. And then if we consider the possibility of Mrs Maxwell getting an incorrect time from her husband (maybe she was an hour out and had seen Mary at 7.00-7.30?)

Perhaps the most difficult question is, how could Maurice Lewis have supposedly seen her in The Britannia at 10.00?


I’m not supporting any theory or claiming to know the truth because I don’t but my question is…are we too quick to dismiss the testimony of Caroline Maxwell?