Schwartz = Goldstein

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I have posted the following material previously, but thought if I summarised into a table, I'd make my point clearer and worthy of its own thread.

The following is from the entry for Israel Schwartz in Chris Scott's Jack the Ripper: A Cast of Thousands.

Such an important witness proves to be remarkable elusive. One identification is from the 1891 census data and involves a family living at 22 Samuel Street, St. George in the East. The residents are as follows:
Head:
Israel Schwartz aged 27 born Poland - Tailor's presser
Wife:
Eva Schwartz aged 27 born Poland
Children:
Dinah E aged 6 born Poland
Louis aged 1 months born St George's.
The obvious difficulty with this candidate is that his place of birth - as with his wife and older child - is given as Poland, not Hungary. It is also only possible to say that Schwartz and his family came to England some time between 1885 (the year of birth of his daughter, born in Poland) and early 1891 (the date of the birth of his son, born in St. George's.) The identification of this man as the witness Schwartz can only be accepted as a possible, not definite, match.

This follows:

It has to be said that other Israel Schwartz identifications fare no better, if not worse. In the 1901 census there is this listing:
8 Little Alie Street
Whitechapel London
Head of Household:
Israel Schwartz
Aged 35
Russian Subject
Profession: Cigarette Maker
Millie Schwartz
Wife
Aged 35
Russian Subject
Samuel Schwartz
Son
Aged 6
Russian Subject
Rueben Schwartz
Son
Aged 2

The address is certainly in the right area but the fact that the older son is listed as a Russian subject suggests that the family did not come to England until after 1895.

That last point obviously seems a problem, but I'll assume this Israel Schwartz left England and returned years later. Now to Leon Goldstein. According to Chris, the best census match for Goldstein is contained in this post. Quote:

The only census listing I can find of a man of the right trade is in 1891:
55 Marine Parade, Minster, Sheppey, Kent
Head: Joseph Phibey aged 51 born Chatham - Blacksmith
Wife: Annie Phibey aged 50 born Commercial Road, London
Children:
Harry aged 16 - Printer
Gertrude aged 12
Florence aged 6
Married daughter:
Amelia Millmott aged 24
All children born in Sheerness
Visitor:
Leon Goldstein aged 25 (Unmarried) born Russia - Cigarette maker

The oldest child of the Israel Schwartz living in Little Alie St, is 6. It would be reasonable to assume this man was likely unmarried in 1888. What happens when we compare this man to the best census match for Leon Goldstein, in 1888 terms?

1888	Israel Schwartz	Leon Goldstein
Age	22	22
Nationality	Russian	Russian
Marital Status	Unmarried	Unmarried
Occupation	Cigarette Maker	Cigarette Maker

One and the same man?

[Kattrup]

Hi Not

Anything’s possible, but there does not seem to be any doubt that we’re dealing with different men.

I don’t really understand your table about 1888, since the information seems inaccurate.

In 1888, Leon Goldstein was described as a traveler, not a cigarette maker.
He carried empty cigarette cases, so it’s perhaps not unreasonable to think by 1891 he had become a cigarette maker somewhat far from London. But we don’t know.

Israel Schwartz otoh was not unmarried? Neither of the candidates mentioned by Chris Scott were unmarried, and the actual witness Israel Schwartz was also married.
I also don’t know if it was mentioned whether Goldstein was married or unmarried, I don’t think it was, but if course from the context I agree that he was most likely unmarried.

[Patrick Differ]

Hi NBFN- When I used Ancestry I was able to trace Israel Schwartz to Jubilee Street after 1888. He was married with children. I do not believe he changed his name.

My grandparents were born in Poland in 1880's and they were Russian subjects. They escaped to the USA in 1907 and actually met and married here in 1912 when they were naturalized.

That said the name changes were not uncommon . In my own family we have 2 spellings for my grandfather..Daukszewicz and Dankewicz. I've actually found these 2 spellings in public records. In the immigration documents they list my grandparents as being from Russia/Poland.

The thing with Schwartz that I wonder about is whether he was actually stopping by the International Working Mens Club before supposedly heading home. The Club itself moved from Berner Street to Jubilee Street where Schwartz is also found.

It could be that the attack on Stride was more violent than thought, to the point of yelling Lipski drove 2 men away from rhe scene?

Not sure this helps but I don't think Schwartz had changed his name. I do think he was possibly part of the Berner Street Socialists who were proactively Unionizing the Trades. It would be a smart move for him.

You should find him on Jubilee Street.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Not

Anything’s possible, but there does not seem to be any doubt that we’re dealing with different men.

I don’t really understand your table about 1888, since the information seems inaccurate.

In 1888, Leon Goldstein was described as a traveler, not a cigarette maker.
He carried empty cigarette cases, so it’s perhaps not unreasonable to think by 1891 he had become a cigarette maker somewhat far from London. But we don’t know.

Israel Schwartz otoh was not unmarried? Neither of the candidates mentioned by Chris Scott were unmarried, and the actual witness Israel Schwartz was also married.
I also don’t know if it was mentioned whether Goldstein was married or unmarried, I don’t think it was, but if course from the context I agree that he was most likely unmarried.

Regarding Goldstein, if Chris Scott's census match is not necessarily correct, then do we have a better one?

If Schwartz was married at the time, why would he leave his wife (and kids?) alone all day, and return home at 1am, possibly to a new residence that she had moved the family to in his absence? What did he do for food and drink all that time? Presumably he took a bag with him. Possibly a black one.

[Kattrup]

Regarding Goldstein, if Chris Scott's census match is not necessarily correct, then do we have a better one?

as far as I know, we don’t.

If Schwartz was married at the time, why would he leave his wife (and kids?) alone all day, and return home at 1am, possibly to a new residence that she had moved the family to in his absence? What did he do for food and drink all that time? Presumably he took a bag with him. Possibly a black one.

Not if, Schwartz was married. Why would he leave his wife alone all day? Well, we don’t know, but it seems fairly commonplace for people to go out, for instance to work or similar.

Look, there’s nothing to indicate that Schwartz and Goldstein were one and the same.
Different names, different addresses, different statements. And the police spoke to both of them.
Nothing wrong with sounding out an idea, but this one does not hold water.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi NBFN- When I used Ancestry I was able to trace Israel Schwartz to Jubilee Street after 1888. He was married with children. I do not believe he changed his name.

My grandparents were born in Poland in 1880's and they were Russian subjects. They escaped to the USA in 1907 and actually met and married here in 1912 when they were naturalized.

That said the name changes were not uncommon . In my own family we have 2 spellings for my grandfather..Daukszewicz and Dankewicz. I've actually found these 2 spellings in public records. In the immigration documents they list my grandparents as being from Russia/Poland.

The thing with Schwartz that I wonder about is whether he was actually stopping by the International Working Mens Club before supposedly heading home. The Club itself moved from Berner Street to Jubilee Street where Schwartz is also found.

It could be that the attack on Stride was more violent than thought, to the point of yelling Lipski drove 2 men away from rhe scene?

Not sure this helps but I don't think Schwartz had changed his name. I do think he was possibly part of the Berner Street Socialists who were proactively Unionizing the Trades. It would be a smart move for him.

You should find him on Jubilee Street.

Thanks Patrick.

There seems to be several candidates for the 'real' Israel Schwartz. Can we trust a man of indeterminate identity?

Regarding Schwartz heading home, supposedly that was to somewhere on Berner St, but not the club. He claims to have reached the gateway when he stopped to watch/listen to the man talking to the woman. He then departs the scene by crossing the road and continuing south. That would place his residence on the east side of Berner St, south of Fairclough St. That is the area in which Stride was supposedly seen talking to a man, by William Marshall. As far as I know, there were few if any private residences along there.

As for his name, perhaps not so much a change of name as an alternate name. The 'real' name of Philip Krantz (Der Arbeter Fraint Editor) was Jacob Rombro. No one is sure who Israel Schwartz actually was. What was his real name?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

as far as I know, we don’t.

Okay. Perhaps someone can offer an alternative.

Not if, Schwartz was married. Why would he leave his wife alone all day? Well, we don’t know, but it seems fairly commonplace for people to go out, for instance to work or similar.

In that case, why didn't the Star just say he had gone to work?

Look, there’s nothing to indicate that Schwartz and Goldstein were one and the same.
Different names, different addresses, different statements. And the police spoke to both of them.
Nothing wrong with sounding out an idea, but this one does not hold water.

The police spoke to two men, neither of whom had photo ID.

[New Waterloo]

The immediate period/build up to Strides murder is quite remarkable. It is true that the route taken by Goldstein to his home and the route taken by Schwartz are much the same. I dont think however that they are the same man. What is occurring is such a puzzle. An example of the confusion is that we have schwartz, BS man, pipe man, another man? Stride, a couple by the board school, spooner and his girl friend, short coat man (with Stride) and Goldstein, Mortimer etc etc

there has to be an overlap. There cant surely be all these people active in the area within a small time frame.

i am tempted to believe a poster (forget who) suggesting we may have the alleyway wrong or even the street.
there is something completely wrong about all of this. But the clues and witnesses are there. Which is great

keep reading all

NW