Is He In The Mix?

[Fernglas]

I agree that there's more to the case against Klosowski that just being a proven killer, but my take on medical knowledge is a little different from yours. There are conflicting views on how much medical or anatomical knowledge the Ripper would have needed to have, but if he did need to have a certain amount of that, then any suspect who has less than that couldn't have been the Ripper. However, if no such knowledge was needed, someone who did have that knowledge could still have been the Ripper. So all else being equal (as it never is), the suspect with more such knowledge is a better suspect than the one with less.

Klosowski was also Abberline's #1 suspect, even if he only became that 14 years later. That indicates that Abberline didn't make a rush to judgement. And Klosowski lived in a favorable location.

Agree that on the medical knowledge question there are conflicting views. Mitre Square in my honest opinion points towards the Ripper having quite a bit of medical knowledge. Going by Dr. Phillips post mortem, as said he could retrace the steps the Ripper made and would have operated similarly himself. Circumventing the navel and the sygmoid put in was surgeonīs knowledge back then, not something the general populace knew and even today few people outside the medical jobs know this. We also have to remember that JtR "worked" under time pressure and in very adverse conditions. Mitre Square was nearly full dark and Kati was lying on the ground, not on an operating table. I theorise that the Ripper became aware that he ****ed up in Mitre Square, giving out an example of his skills and that he then did some more post-op mutilations to muddy the waters again.

I know some Ripper researchers scoff at the idea JtR could have had medical knowledge and point to some mutilations and misses, but they willfully overlook the situation. With the exception of Kelly, all attacks were outside, done under time pressure, under really bad lighting conditions on the ground, not an ER room. That Jack did not total butchery like the victims looking like having landed on a grenade, points towards existing medical knowledge or if he really was an amateur, considerable talent.

[Lewis C]

There is even more to him than "just" being a proven serial killer. Klosowski is one of the few prime suspects with enough medical knowledge to be able to extract the Eddowes kidney under the abomiable circumstances in Mitre Square without making a hack of it. Dr. Phillips could retrace the steps Jack did and would have operated similarly himself. Further Klosowski poisoned his victims with Antimon which is a) a terrible way to die and b) at that time Antimon was nearly unknown to British doctors. It shows a sadism on par with JtRīs and also a shrewdness due to his picking a rare and less known poison.
Klosowski left Britain after the Kelly murder for a time and one of his wives said that he is a Janus face. He could be really charming but it hid a truly evil sadist.

I agree that there's more to the case against Klosowski that just being a proven killer, but my take on medical knowledge is a little different from yours. There are conflicting views on how much medical or anatomical knowledge the Ripper would have needed to have, but if he did need to have a certain amount of that, then any suspect who has less than that couldn't have been the Ripper. However, if no such knowledge was needed, someone who did have that knowledge could still have been the Ripper. So all else being equal (as it never is), the suspect with more such knowledge is a better suspect than the one with less.

Klosowski was also Abberline's #1 suspect, even if he only became that 14 years later. That indicates that Abberline didn't make a rush to judgement. And Klosowski lived in a favorable location.

[Fernglas]

Hi Fernglas,

Chapman is one of my top suspects too. While the completely different methods of killing are certainly worth mentioning, on the other hand, with Chapman, we know that he wasn't above committing murder. Bury, Kelly, and Deeming are the only other reasonable suspects in the case that that's also true of.

There is even more to him than "just" being a proven serial killer. Klosowski is one of the few prime suspects with enough medical knowledge to be able to extract the Eddowes kidney under the abomiable circumstances in Mitre Square without making a hack of it. Dr. Phillips could retrace the steps Jack did and would have operated similarly himself. Further Klosowski poisoned his victims with Antimon which is a) a terrible way to die and b) at that time Antimon was nearly unknown to British doctors. It shows a sadism on par with JtRīs and also a shrewdness due to his picking a rare and less known poison.
Klosowski left Britain after the Kelly murder for a time and one of his wives said that he is a Janus face. He could be really charming but it hid a truly evil sadist.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

He claimed to know the victim and was the last known person to be seen with her. In addition, he didn't come forward until days after the inquest. These are all major red flags in a murder investigation. So the question is were the police at the time so incompetent and inept that they missed all these red flags? Or did his coming forward as a witness completely dispel any suspicions that they had? See, this is the point I was trying to make with Lewis. If he was so suspicious and "dodgy" wouldn't they have checked him out? Now I can believe that the investigation was hurried and maybe not as thorough as it should have been and they might have missed something. But do you really believe that they completely missed all those red flags or did they do something about them?

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. A highly questionable witness gets investigated.

c.d.

hi cd
well abberline did say he " interrogated " him, so there was probably some initial suspicion, but quickly came to beleive him at least in the beginning. probably alot of wishful thinking going on there after along exhausing, pressure filled case, coupled with hutch confidence he could id him no problem. followed by hutch eventually being dropped as a serious witness.

it wouldnt be the first time, or last, that a killer fooled police. especially beck then without all the modern forensic stuff.

[Lewis C]

Hi!
Most definitely the Ripper is imentioned n the files, even if we cannot see it right away. Jack was a violent, deeply disturbed person with an M.O. featuring some really rare combination of traits (e.g. stabbing and staging the victims). It is unlikely in the extreme that he evaded all suspicion, he was too disturbed.

From the "star lineup" I think it was (in no special order): Klosowski, Druitt, Kosminski, Sagarīs suspect, Levy

Those scoffing at Klosowski/Chapman due to his poisoned victims, please remember that he already had his "magnum opus" in stabbing with MJK.

Hi Fernglas,

Chapman is one of my top suspects too. While the completely different methods of killing are certainly worth mentioning, on the other hand, with Chapman, we know that he wasn't above committing murder. Bury, Kelly, and Deeming are the only other reasonable suspects in the case that that's also true of.

[Lewis C]

Hello Abby,

He claimed to know the victim and was the last known person to be seen with her. In addition, he didn't come forward until days after the inquest. These are all major red flags in a murder investigation. So the question is were the police at the time so incompetent and inept that they missed all these red flags? Or did his coming forward as a witness completely dispel any suspicions that they had? See, this is the point I was trying to make with Lewis. If he was so suspicious and "dodgy" wouldn't they have checked him out? Now I can believe that the investigation was hurried and maybe not as thorough as it should have been and they might have missed something. But do you really believe that they completely missed all those red flags or did they do something about them?

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. A highly questionable witness gets investigated.

c.d.

I see, and that's a good point. I think that they did have some suspicions of him, but ultimately, after investigating and analyzing as well as they could, they decided not to arrest him. I don't think that they necessarily cleared him, they just decided there wasn't enough there to justify an arrest. Maybe it would be better to say that from our perspective and what we know, he looks suspicious. Maybe if we knew more, he would look less suspicious.

[Fernglas]

Hi!
Most definitely the Ripper is imentioned n the files, even if we cannot see it right away. Jack was a violent, deeply disturbed person with an M.O. featuring some really rare combination of traits (e.g. stabbing and staging the victims). It is unlikely in the extreme that he evaded all suspicion, he was too disturbed.

From the "star lineup" I think it was (in no special order): Klosowski, Druitt, Kosminski, Sagarīs suspect, Levy

Those scoffing at Klosowski/Chapman due to his poisoned victims, please remember that he already had his "magnum opus" in stabbing with MJK.

[c.d.]

agree. lots of dodgy stuff going on with him.

Hello Abby,

He claimed to know the victim and was the last known person to be seen with her. In addition, he didn't come forward until days after the inquest. These are all major red flags in a murder investigation. So the question is were the police at the time so incompetent and inept that they missed all these red flags? Or did his coming forward as a witness completely dispel any suspicions that they had? See, this is the point I was trying to make with Lewis. If he was so suspicious and "dodgy" wouldn't they have checked him out? Now I can believe that the investigation was hurried and maybe not as thorough as it should have been and they might have missed something. But do you really believe that they completely missed all those red flags or did they do something about them?

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. A highly questionable witness gets investigated.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Hutch is a witness, but I wouldn't say he's of random one. Of all the witnesses in the case, I think he's easily the most suspicious.

agree. lots of dodgy stuff going on with him.

[Losmandris]

Having said that. I wonder, with all the information and knowledge we have now about serial murder, where the police back then looking for the wrong person or type of person?

[Losmandris]

I think I tend to agree with the consensus. Name was probably there in the files somewhere. But is now long gone. I also agree that there was a lot of potential through trauma for a lot of mentally disturbed people to out and about there. Luckily both back then and now the likelihood of some a severely mentally disturbed person to end up as a serial killer is pretty low.

[Lewis C]

If true, wouldn't that attract greater scrutiny from the police?

c.d.

Was there another witness that was scrutinized more?

[c.d.]

Hi Abby,

Hutch is a witness, but I wouldn't say he's of random one. Of all the witnesses in the case, I think he's easily the most suspicious.

If true, wouldn't that attract greater scrutiny from the police?

c.d.

[Lewis C]

I got bury and Kelly #1 and 3, but I also have random witness hutch #2, so maybe I’m the idiot lol

Hi Abby,

Hutch is a witness, but I wouldn't say he's of random one. Of all the witnesses in the case, I think he's easily the most suspicious.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello Herlock,

Being a witness shouldn't rule anybody out or in for that matter in and of itself as though being a killer was a 24/7 occupation.

If we follow that logic we could say that Kosminkski was a barber or that Druitt was a barrister or that Barnett sold fruit so none of them could have been a killer.

c.d.

P.S. For the record, I don't believe Hutchinson was JTR.

Hello c.d.

Absolutely. It would just help to stop people jabbering on about Cross.