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  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

    Did the coroner ask if anyone saw grapes?

    The grape fiasco not Packer's doing.
    Diemshutz says he saw grapes in her hand, Kozebrodski says the same.
    How big is this conspiracy you are selling?

    Grape flesh is like 99% water, once you spit out the skin & pips, all that is left is the flesh, that is what you eat.
    The autopsy was only conducted 38 hours after the murder, of course any grape flesh will be totally dissolved by stomach acids by the time the surgeon opens the stomach.
    Hi Jon,

    Dr Phillips recalled:
    Neither on the hands nor about the body of the deceased did I find grapes, or connection with them. I am convinced that the deceased had not swallowed either the skin or seed of a grape within many hours of her death.

    Dr Blackwell:
    [Coroner] Did you perceive any grapes near the body in the yard? - No.
    [Coroner] Did you hear any person say that they had seen grapes there? - I did not.


    It appears that there was an awareness that grapes had been mentioned, and one wonders why that question was not put to Diemshitz, Smith, Johnson or Spooner.

    I agree with you that Packer was much maligned. When initially he said he saw and heard nothing, he, as did many witnesses, left out the word "unusual". The man sold fruit and vegetables for a living, so selling a customer some grapes wasn't unusual until grapes became an issue. Packer correctly identified Stride's body after having been shown Eddowes body as a decoy. The worst that can be said about him was that he became confused about times.

    Cheers, George
    Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.​ - LOTR

    All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

    ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

    Comment


    • So we choose to believe the grape theory and negate the views of both Philips and Blackwell.


      IF Diemschultz said there were grapes and his fellow club member...then I'd suggest that Le Grand got to them too.

      Now IF any of the POLICEMEN stated there were Grapes, THEN it helps to prove that the coroners were wrong.

      And so I ask, were there ANY police officials at the scene who said they saw grapes?


      IF there is, then the grapes theory holds credence and Packer's statement is warranted and the opinions of Philips and Blackwell can be called into question.

      However, IF PC Smith or any of the other POLICE officials make no mention of grapes...then my hypothesis holds water and rather than being patronized, my views can be seen as valid.

      I do recall that ONE witness stated that Stride held a PIECE OF PAPER tightly in her right hand...that again contradicts the grapes theory.


      If Packer said that he sold grapes and 2 women later claimed to have found a grape stalk close to the murder site, and those 3 individuals ALL were spoken to by Le Grand, then I would also suggest that Diemschultz was also making false claims.

      Let's not forget that Diemschultz was involved in violence the following year and so has the capacity for violence.


      And what if Diemchultz didn't just miss Stride with his cart...and as he pulled into the gateway she was in the way. He told her to move and she didn't, so he got off his cart and then cut her throat...hiding his knife in his cart...

      I mean technically... Diemschultz is the Stride equivalent of Lechmere.

      Anyone from the club could have killed her and at least nobody would have expected Diemschultz as he was the man who found the body and it's only his word for it.


      RD





      "Great minds, don't think alike"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

        Hi Jon,

        Dr Phillips recalled:
        Neither on the hands nor about the body of the deceased did I find grapes, or connection with them. I am convinced that the deceased had not swallowed either the skin or seed of a grape within many hours of her death.

        Dr Blackwell:
        [Coroner] Did you perceive any grapes near the body in the yard? - No.
        [Coroner] Did you hear any person say that they had seen grapes there? - I did not.


        It appears that there was an awareness that grapes had been mentioned, and one wonders why that question was not put to Diemshitz, Smith, Johnson or Spooner.

        I agree with you that Packer was much maligned. When initially he said he saw and heard nothing, he, as did many witnesses, left out the word "unusual". The man sold fruit and vegetables for a living, so selling a customer some grapes wasn't unusual until grapes became an issue. Packer correctly identified Stride's body after having been shown Eddowes body as a decoy. The worst that can be said about him was that he became confused about times.

        Cheers, George
        Thankyou George, yes, your concluding line - which has been my argument for years. Packer was confused about the time, the statements he made demonstrate he was not sure whether the grape buying couple turned up between 11:00 - 11:30 or 12:00 - 12:30.

        We know what time it was, and 'we know' because we know Stride was at the Bricklayers Arms about 11:00 pm, Packer did not know this, but the police will have known this. The police though, cannot correct a witness statement, he must do that himself. As he couldn't, the police could not use his statement.
        None of which means Packer's evidence was unreliable, because we know the correct time. Oddly, Packer had already given the correct version to the press, that the couple showed up about 11:45, and he last saw them as he shut up his shutters about 12:30. So this is what we can use.

        Incidentally, as you may have known, I am aware of what the doctors had testified to (your quotes above), "no evidence of grapes"? - the evidence is eaten, of course there's no evidence. What we do have is a handkerchief with fruit stains, which is what you get when you spit out pips & skin. Ladies use a cloth, a handkerchief, they don't spit in the street, that's what men do.
        The handkerchief is the proof, otherwise the doctor will say something like the stain is of long standing, like they do with bruises, if they think the bruise was in existence before the incident happened.

        I agree that it seems like the coroner knew there was an issue over grapes, but he likely didn't ask any witness directly because the answer was irrelevant. We have to remember what the duties of the coroner were, and establishing the presence of grapes on or around her body has no bearing on the duty of the coroner's inquiry.
        Regards, Jon S.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

          Sorry, I realized what you meant after reading a few posts.
          Something less than 10 minutes, more like 5 - if we are guessing.
          Does any number come to mind for yourself?
          I'm fairly close to George on this subject ...

          Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

          Hi Andrew,

          Lamb was found at about 1 o'clock police time. He had just viewed his reference clock so this would be reasonably accurate. Smith was on police time, but estimating from when he last saw a reference clock, so I would guess around 1:04. Diemshitz claimed he looked at the Harris Tobacco clock which was not necessarily synched with police time. I would estimate he arrived about 10 minutes before Smith.

          Cheers, George
          ​I think this could be important though, as it suggests to me that 1:10 was also a police time ...

          The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock, and Dr. Phillips, of 2 Spital square, the divisional police surgeon, was immediately communicated with.

          Once Lamb arrives, assesses the situation and sends Eagle to Leman St to inform of the murder, how much time has elapsed? No more than 7 or 8 minutes, I'd guess. So, perhaps I would move George's timeline forward 2 or 3 minutes, but no more. That all means Diemschitz arriving at ~12:56.

          Fanny's timing seems to be closely aligned with Louis' ...

          It was just after one o'clock when I went out ...

          So, assuming this was really just before 1am, what time was this occurring ...

          I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed when I heard a commotion outside and immediately ran out ...

          Had Fanny just missed seeing the cart, it was ~12:55. Had she missed it by a few minutes, it would have been about 12:52.

          Some posters suggest the incident described by Schwartz would have been all over in 30 to 40 seconds, and that is why she missed it. Ironically, Leon Goldstein's transit through Berner St would have taken about that long, and Fanny did not miss it. Yet somehow, she misses Schwartz doing the same thing, with all that accompanied his transit of Berner St. This makes very little sense.

          Assuming the lock up time estimate of 12:52 is close enough to the truth, and Fanny sees Goldstein just before this, at approximately what time did the Schwartz incident occur?
          Last edited by NotBlamedForNothing; 09-30-2023, 01:17 AM.
          Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

          Comment


          • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            So we choose to believe the grape theory and negate the views of both Philips and Blackwell.


            IF Diemschultz said there were grapes and his fellow club member...then I'd suggest that Le Grand got to them too.

            Now IF any of the POLICEMEN stated there were Grapes, THEN it helps to prove that the coroners were wrong.

            And so I ask, were there ANY police officials at the scene who said they saw grapes?


            IF there is, then the grapes theory holds credence and Packer's statement is warranted and the opinions of Philips and Blackwell can be called into question.

            However, IF PC Smith or any of the other POLICE officials make no mention of grapes...then my hypothesis holds water and rather than being patronized, my views can be seen as valid.
            No police mentioned grapes. However, there may have been grapes without calling the opinions of Philips and Blackwell into question. By the time Blackwell arrived the grapes may have been removed, and by the time of Phillips' examination, any evidence for grapes had long gone.

            I do recall that ONE witness stated that Stride held a PIECE OF PAPER tightly in her right hand...that again contradicts the grapes theory.
            Spooner: I noticed that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and some red and white flowers pinned on her breast.

            Here's a theory for you. Someone who observed the victim at close range prior to Spooner doing so, took the grapes from her hand, ate them, and threw the stalk into the gutter. The grapes had been within the piece of paper seen by Spooner.

            If Packer said that he sold grapes and 2 women later claimed to have found a grape stalk close to the murder site, and those 3 individuals ALL were spoken to by Le Grand, then I would also suggest that Diemschultz was also making false claims.

            Let's not forget that Diemschultz was involved in violence the following year and so has the capacity for violence.
            If a witness does not into a theory, they can always be included in the conspiracy, so that they do fit. If that is being too harsh, then please explain how Le Grande was able to influence both Diemschitz and Kozebrodski, four days before the Packer Evening News story broke.

            And what if Diemchultz didn't just miss Stride with his cart...and as he pulled into the gateway she was in the way. He told her to move and she didn't, so he got off his cart and then cut her throat...hiding his knife in his cart...

            I mean technically... Diemschultz is the Stride equivalent of Lechmere.

            Anyone from the club could have killed her and at least nobody would have expected Diemschultz as he was the man who found the body and it's only his word for it.
            That is rather far-fetched, although could it help explain the disappearing pony & cart?...

            Last edited by NotBlamedForNothing; 09-30-2023, 03:27 AM.
            Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

            Comment


            • Why would Stride tell Elizabeth Tanner the deputy at 32 Flower and Dean Street that she has been living with her man at Fashion Street and not Dorset street. Tanner says that she often saw her in the 3 months before her murder. (Inquest evidence)

              This seems to be evidence that Stride was a liar

              OR

              there is a connection to Fashion street that needs exploring.

              NW

              Comment


              • Originally posted by New Waterloo View Post
                Why would Stride tell Elizabeth Tanner the deputy at 32 Flower and Dean Street that she has been living with her man at Fashion Street and not Dorset street. Tanner says that she often saw her in the 3 months before her murder. (Inquest evidence)

                This seems to be evidence that Stride was a liar

                OR

                there is a connection to Fashion street that needs exploring.

                NW
                I believe Fashion Street was a term used by certain prostitutes that belonged to a certain group or pimped out by a particular gang.


                For example, Eddowes also told the policeman as she left the police station that she was from 6 Fashion Street


                At the time Fashion Street was home to mainly Russia/Polish/German Jews


                So we have Stride who mentions Fashion Street
                We have Eddowes who mentions 6 fashion Street and also gives her name as Mary Kelly
                And then we have MJK who went by the name of Mary Kelly but probably wasn't her name either.


                Regarding Fashion Street..it is also possible that the man Stride was seen kissing and cuddling outside the Bricklayers Arms was someone whom she had been seeing for a while.
                If that's the case, then it is very plausible that Stride AND Eddowes are linked by Fashion Street through the SAME MAN.


                And it's also fair to say that when they were seen running off together from the doorway of the Bricklayers Arms and towards Berner Street by the 2 witnesses, that THIS man was heading to the Jewish Socialist Club in Berner Street.

                Now IF this man went into the club and Stride had to wait outside for him while he conducted his business inside the club, then it would account for Stride standing in the gateway.

                Let's also remember that Eddowes stated that she KNEW THE KILLER, and when she was warned that he could get her, she seemed almost flippant in her response, in a way that she thought she never needed to worry because she was dating him.

                That could then create another link between Stride and Eddowes...and perhaps even MJK.


                It was said that there was another man who had been good to her recently and IF that was the case, then this man would have been allowed into MJK's room without raising any suspicion. Now IF we choose to believe any of the elusive George Hutchinson; he stated that when MJK approached the man seen by Hutchinson, she burst out laughing. This would imply that she was familiar with him.


                And so we have Stride...recently left her partner and was murdered outside a Jewish Socialist club, having been seen with a man kissing and cuddling outside the Bricklayers Arms a couple of hours before she was murdered. Stride was dressed like she was on a date and even had a flower/flowers with her. She was not soliciting the night she was murdered.

                We then have Eddowes who was killed on the same night by a man who she claimed she knew was the killer. She may have been joking but her response when being warned was one of complacency and a belief she wouldn't be harmed.
                Perhaps she had discovered the truth and was silenced for knowing too much.

                We then have MJK who also recently split from her partner and was alleged to have been treated kindly by someone other than Barnett.


                Therefore, Stride, Eddowes and MJK were possibly dating the same man, who had recently befriended them and promised them the world. but who in reality was planning on murdering them.

                It's just a hypothesis of course.

                But Fashion Street links Stride with Eddowes
                And the name Mary Kelly links Eddowes with MJK

                Could the killer have been the man seen outside the Bricklayers arms?

                And could he be the Ripper?

                If so, did the ripper LIVE in Fashion Street?



                Interesting...


                RD
                "Great minds, don't think alike"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                  No police mentioned grapes. However, there may have been grapes without calling the opinions of Philips and Blackwell into question. By the time Blackwell arrived the grapes may have been removed, and by the time of Phillips' examination, any evidence for grapes had long gone.



                  Spooner: I noticed that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and some red and white flowers pinned on her breast.

                  Here's a theory for you. Someone who observed the victim at close range prior to Spooner doing so, took the grapes from her hand, ate them, and threw the stalk into the gutter. The grapes had been within the piece of paper seen by Spooner.



                  If a witness does not into a theory, they can always be included in the conspiracy, so that they do fit. If that is being too harsh, then please explain how Le Grande was able to influence both Diemschitz and Kozebrodski, four days before the Packer Evening News story broke.



                  That is rather far-fetched, although could it help explain the disappearing pony & cart?...

                  Who did actually move the cart and horse?

                  Someone must have put them somewhere and attended to the horse.


                  Maybe Stride took out the Cachous to feed the horse.




                  Interesting



                  RD
                  "Great minds, don't think alike"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

                    Who did actually move the cart and horse?

                    Someone must have put them somewhere and attended to the horse.


                    Maybe Stride took out the Cachous to feed the horse.




                    Interesting



                    RD
                    Louis D said that he left the pony in the yard, just outside the club.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
                      Some posters suggest the incident described by Schwartz would have been all over in 30 to 40 seconds, and that is why she missed it. Ironically, Leon Goldstein's transit through Berner St would have taken about that long, and Fanny did not miss it. Yet somehow, she misses Schwartz doing the same thing, with all that accompanied his transit of Berner St. This makes very little sense.

                      Assuming the lock up time estimate of 12:52 is close enough to the truth, and Fanny sees Goldstein just before this, at approximately what time did the Schwartz incident occur?
                      I think that the point on the Schwartz incident lasting as little as 30-40 seconds isn't that it was so brief that she could have missed it even though it happened while she was watching. I think that the point is that its brevity means that it wouldn't be as hard for it to fit into a timeline as it would be if it had taken longer.

                      I still think that if the Schwartz incident happened, and I think most likely it did, the most likely time for it to have happened is right before Mortimer came to her door.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by New Waterloo View Post
                        Why would Stride tell Elizabeth Tanner the deputy at 32 Flower and Dean Street that she has been living with her man at Fashion Street and not Dorset street. Tanner says that she often saw her in the 3 months before her murder. (Inquest evidence)

                        This seems to be evidence that Stride was a liar

                        OR

                        there is a connection to Fashion street that needs exploring.

                        NW
                        I think that it's established that Stride was a liar, isn't it? Of course even so, the question remains about whether or not she was lying on this occasion.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                          No police mentioned grapes. However, there may have been grapes without calling the opinions of Philips and Blackwell into question. By the time Blackwell arrived the grapes may have been removed, and by the time of Phillips' examination, any evidence for grapes had long gone.


                          Spooner: I noticed that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and some red and white flowers pinned on her breast.
                          I also think the grapes were there, but the very idea only served to antagonize some members who couldn't tolerate the idea.

                          Has anyone given a thought as to why Stride would have a piece of paper in her hand?
                          I'll bet most people envisage a small piece of white paper folded or crunched up in her hand, but where would east enders get white paper from?
                          More likely, it was a piece of newspaper, this was the 'paper' of the day as it was freely available for the poor and used as wrapping by every small produce seller around the city. If anyone asked for a piece of paper, they would be handed newspaper.

                          The fact she appears to have had this piece of (news)paper in her hand, where others saw grapes, suggests to me that by the time Spooner had arrived the grapes had fallen out onto the ground in the darkness. By the time the whole incident was over these black grapes would have been well trodden into the ground, in the blood, and 'mud', becoming oblivious to anyone left in the yard.

                          Stride had held a small piece of torn newspaper in which she held a few grapes. Diemshutz & Kozebrodski, being the first to arrive out of the club saw grapes in her hand. They both left the yard to find police while others came out of the club and surrounded the body, maybe 3-5 minutes later Diemshutz & Spooner came back in the yard and Spooner only saw the empty crunched up piece of (news)paper between her fingers. The grapes fell out of her hand and down the front of her jacket, between her body and the wall.

                          Whether the grapes were there or not doesn't affect the story in any way, all that matters is we acknowledge Packer selling the grapes to this couple, after that their significance is diminished.
                          Regards, Jon S.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Lewis C View Post

                            I think that it's established that Stride was a liar, isn't it? Of course even so, the question remains about whether or not she was lying on this occasion.
                            You ever met anyone who never told a lie?


                            This was the East End, I have to wonder if some think these crimes took place in Vatican City.

                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

                              Who did actually move the cart and horse?

                              Someone must have put them somewhere and attended to the horse.


                              Maybe Stride took out the Cachous to feed the horse.
                              Interesting
                              RD
                              Now lets not be silly, we all know there was no horse...
                              It was really Le Grand & Batchelor



                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Doctored Whatsit View Post

                                Louis D said that he left the pony in the yard, just outside the club.
                                So, if the pony was left just outside the club (door, I presume you mean), where was the cart left in relation to the body?
                                Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                                Comment

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