Four little words

[curious4]

Bridewell's water

Hello,

Just reread my post and would like to make it clear that by "Bridewell's water" I meant Bridewell's suggestion of water thrown out if the window (used for hand and face washing), no connection with Bridewell's water at all!

Best wishes,
C4

[Fisherman]

Correct, and I think we should assume the average East Ender was able to recognise sweat when he saw it

This is what was said:

"I saw some water, which seemed to me as if it had been thrown at her."
Echo, 12th.

"She looked as if she had been sprinkled with water or something."
Daily News, 13th.

Can you tell sweat from water by looking at it? I know I canīt. And I also know that when movies are made where a character is supposed to be sweaty in some scene, the impression is created by spraying water on the actor.

I donīt think James Kent - or anybody else - would expect a cold corpse to be covered in sweat. That would not have been a viable option for an explanation to the liquid. In the end, though, it looked like water, just like sweat looks like water (and indeed IS water), and therefore I donīt think the possibility of "death sweat" can be ruled out by any supposition that Eastenders recognize sweat when they see it.

And once again, nothing tells us that the liquid was on both the uncovered parts of Chapman as well as on her clothes.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello all,

The killer took away "the greater part of the bladder" (along with the other bits) meaning that the bladder must have been cut, spilling its contents at some point. This could account for the liquid spilled or sprinkled on Annie, depending on how much of the bladder was left. If there was only a little left, perhaps the contents would trickle out slowly through a smaller cut. If more, you would expect the contents to run out as the bladder was lifted. In the latter case, thr contents would probably disperse in the general mutilated area and not be as noticeable.

Best wishes,
C4

Now you're talking.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Robert]

So to clarify, was the moisture due to the dew or did the Ripper dude do it - perhaps someone like Druitt. Or maybe someone just threw it. It's hard to intuit however you view it.

[Wickerman]

But had the moisture been due to Annie sweating, I don't think it would appear to be water sprinkled ON her clothes, it could be coming outward and would be on her skin, but not on the surface of her clothing.

curious

Correct, and I think we should assume the average East Ender was able to recognise sweat when he saw it

[curious4]

White satin

Hello Fish,

Thank you. I have to admit that I wasn't entirely serious when I suggested gin. Although it can't be entirely ruled out. Bridewell's water thrown out of the window is a definitely a good possibility, except I would opt for water used perhaps for washing more than the gazunder-emptying.

All good wishes,
C4

[Fisherman]

Hello all,

The killer took away "the greater part of the bladder" (along with the other bits) meaning that the bladder must have been cut, spilling its contents at some point. This could account for the liquid spilled or sprinkled on Annie, depending on how much of the bladder was left. If there was only a little left, perhaps the contents would trickle out slowly through a smaller cut. If more, you would expect the contents to run out as the bladder was lifted. In the latter case, thr contents would probably disperse in the general mutilated area and not be as noticeable.

Best wishes,
C4

I think your best suggestion is the last one. A bladder will not be a jar that lends itself to carrying liquid in - it will spill itīs contents the moment you cut it away and lift it, methinks. Not that I have any practice ...

The best,
Fisherman

[curious4]

Annie's

Hello all,

The killer took away "the greater part of the bladder" (along with the other bits) meaning that the bladder must have been cut, spilling its contents at some point. This could account for the liquid spilled or sprinkled on Annie, depending on how much of the bladder was left. If there was only a little left, perhaps the contents would trickle out slowly through a smaller cut. If more, you would expect the contents to run out as the bladder was lifted. In the latter case, thr contents would probably disperse in the general mutilated area and not be as noticeable.

Best wishes,
C4

[Fisherman]

Hi, Fisherman,
I've also read Ginger's reply, so I'm up to date.

But had the moisture been due to Annie sweating, I don't think it would appear to be water sprinkled ON her clothes, it could be coming outward and would be on her skin, but not on the surface of her clothing.

curious

Do we have any evidence telling us that the liquid was on her clothing? I would have thought that it would have been soaked into the fabric if this was the case. Chapman wore a long black coat, and that would not have been a mac or anything like that.
From what Iīve seen, it is only said that the liquid was on Chapman - not on her clothing. My understanding was that it was on her skin and on the exposed areas of her body. If there is any material saying that it was on her clothing too, then you are of course correct.

The best,
Fisherman

[curious]

I found this when searching the net:

"After the circulation ceases and the hypothalamus stops functioning, internal body temperature drops by approximately 1 degree Celsius or 1,8 degree Fahrenheit per hour until it reaches room temperature. As the body cools, skin loses its natural elasticity. If a higher fever was present at death, the changes in body temperature are more pronounced and the person may appear to "sweat" after death. Body cooling may also take several more hours."

Itīs from the Oxford Textbook of Palliative Nursing, chapter 32, "Planning for the actual death" by Patricia Berry and Julie Griffie, 2010.

Was that what Kent saw signs of - sweating after death? We know that Chapman was not at all well, and of course she could have had a fever. If this was the liquid on her body, then we should note that a much slower cooling would have accompanied the process, pointing very much to Chapman having been dead for a long time as Phillips examined her.

All the best,
Fisherman

Hi, Fisherman,
I've also read Ginger's reply, so I'm up to date.

But had the moisture been due to Annie sweating, I don't think it would appear to be water sprinkled ON her clothes, it could be coming outward and would be on her skin, but not on the surface of her clothing.

curious

[Fisherman]

Thanks for that, Ginger - then dew it wasnīt.

The best,
Fisherman

[Ginger]

Can I ask you, when you write "dew wouldn't have formed on Annie's body unless she reached a temperature between 39F and 32F, which just wasn't going to happen under the conditions", which conditions are you speaking of?

You're quite welcome. I meant under those weather conditions - her body will just not get cold enough to form dew, no matter the time of the murder.

[Fisherman]

I found this when searching the net:

"After the circulation ceases and the hypothalamus stops functioning, internal body temperature drops by approximately 1 degree Celsius or 1,8 degree Fahrenheit per hour until it reaches room temperature. As the body cools, skin loses its natural elasticity. If a higher fever was present at death, the changes in body temperature are more pronounced and the person may appear to "sweat" after death. Body cooling may also take several more hours."

Itīs from the Oxford Textbook of Palliative Nursing, chapter 32, "Planning for the actual death" by Patricia Berry and Julie Griffie, 2010.

Was that what Kent saw signs of - sweating after death? We know that Chapman was not at all well, and of course she could have had a fever. If this was the liquid on her body, then we should note that a much slower cooling would have accompanied the process, pointing very much to Chapman having been dead for a long time as Phillips examined her.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

I doubt that it could have been dew. Dew condenses on objects that are cooler than the atmosphere. The low temperature that night was around 50F, per http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/weather.html. If the relative humidity for the day is recorded anywhere, I've yet to discover it. However, both the Friday and the Saturday are described as 'fine', 'bright' and 'clear'. To my mind, that argues for a reasonable relative humidity, perhaps around 50% to 65%, which accords well with the chart of London's aggregate historical humidity at http://weatherspark.com/averages/287...United-Kingdom. Calculating the dew point for those values (there's a handy slider-type tool at http://www.dpcalc.org/) shows that dew wouldn't have formed on Annie's body unless she reached a temperature between 39F and 32F, which just wasn't going to happen under the conditions.

If her skin or clothing had gotten wet, it was through some other agency than the formation of dew.

Many thanks for this, Ginger - most helpful! Can I ask you, when you write "dew wouldn't have formed on Annie's body unless she reached a temperature between 39F and 32F, which just wasn't going to happen under the conditions", which conditions are you speaking of? The Long/Cadosch scenario? The Phillips scenario? Or the no matter who scenario, since the surface temperature of the body would not drop low enough for dew to form in either case?
I get a feeling that the last option is what applies. Is that correct?

The best,
Fisherman

[Ginger]

It's a distasteful thought, but someone emptying a chamber pot from the first floor window directly above the body could have been responsible.

Not the sort of thing to make one popular with the downstairs neighbors, I would think.