Who was the best witness to have seen Jack the Ripper?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael
what 4 witnesses?

I apologise, I must have missed this direct question Abby. We have Spooner, we have Isaac Kozebrodksi himself, we have Mr Hoshberg who stated it was at "quarter to 1" when he heard about the body, and I believe the 4th was a member called Gileman, or something close to that.

Worth accentuating that Issac Kozebrodksi, seemingly a valued apprentice at the club, around 17 years old, stated within 1 hour of the murder that he was sent by Louis alone to seek help. It appears that Louis left with someone named Issacs after that, and Eagle went on his quest.

Why accentuate that statement? Because A) it directly contradicts what most people believe was a reference by Louis that Issac Kozebrodksi attended him, it add another search party to the list, which historically is at 2
parties, not 3...., and B) It places Isaac kozebroski, with Louis, by the body, at "about 10 minutes after half past", when he returned to the club.

Which matches the times given by Hoshberg, Gileman, and Spooner....an outside witness and invaluable when looking for objective testimony.

Ive asked Stewart Evans directly here, someone who I personally feel has the absolute best grasp of the facts in these cases bar none, how there could be such timing disparity...and his answer was he had no explanation for why these timings would be as skewed as they are.

When considering that an investigation into the mysterious death of Liz Stride would initially be focussed on the people at that crime scene at the time, a club considered to be run by anarchists by the local police, statements that don't have corroboration but somehow alleviate any suspicion on the club or its members might be more understandable...in that it served a purpose, not recorded a factual event.

Anyone that suspects the club senior members would not tailor their remarks to portray the club or its members as obviously blameless in this affair is naïve. The relationships between the club, the club and the police and the club and the neighborhood that pre-existed the murder dictated as much.

That's why Eagle and Louis agree...at a find after 1am.....and lower station members like Isaac, Hoshberg and Gileman agree with each other..and therefore disagree with the former.

Cheers

[Abby Normal]

Well perhaps not zero.

However peaked caps were not exactly uncommon so why not simply different blokes.

still not very likely.

There is not a lot I am sure of about this case, but one thing I am is that the ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event.

[GUT]

Three, possibly 4 witnesses describe the same cap wearing suspect at one crime scene, a witness describes it At another and one possibly in between.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out the suspect was wearing a peaked cap.

Some bloke out for a walk who just happened to be at all scenes, with the victims? Zero chance.

Well perhaps not zero.

However peaked caps were not exactly uncommon so why not simply different blokes.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby. It's good to see someone else considering the possibility that the Church Street sighting just might be relevant.

Absolutely. And this report came out before any of the other stories about the double event, which strengthens its credibility. A totally independent sighting of a man wearing a peaked cap acting suspiciously.

[Abby Normal]

G'day Abby

And why, pray tell, are you so certain that this was Jack and not just some bloke out for a stroll or on his way to work?

Three, possibly 4 witnesses describe the same cap wearing suspect at one crime scene, a witness describes it At another and one possibly in between.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out the suspect was wearing a peaked cap.

Some bloke out for a walk who just happened to be at all scenes, with the victims? Zero chance.

[Wickerman]

...It's good to see someone else considering the possibility that the Church Street sighting just might be relevant.

Would this be the 1:30 am sighting in Church Lane?
Wouldn't the Eddowes killer be long gone from there by that time?

[GUT]

Not sure about the street gang thing, but one thing im sure of is the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night and was seen by Marshall, Schwartz, Lawende, someone in Church street and possibly Smith.

G'day Abby

And why, pray tell, are you so certain that this was Jack and not just some bloke out for a stroll or on his way to work?

[Bridewell]

Not sure about the street gang thing, but one thing im sure of is the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night and was seen by Marshall, Schwartz, Lawende, someone in Church street and possibly Smith.

Hi Abby. It's good to see someone else considering the possibility that the Church Street sighting just might be relevant.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I was pointing the fact that peaked cap, while a military and merchant navy accessory, was not exclusive to them.

[Abby Normal]

Hi SirJohn

Those type of gangs were found only in the cotton producing regions around Manchester, they are known as "scuttlers", each gang wore distinctive clothing and maintained a territory - the gangs would simply attack each, they seemed to have no strong criminal links , seemingly interested in little other than violence.

They generally behaved more like football hooligan firms than criminal enterprises.

Not sure about the street gang thing, but one thing im sure of is the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night and was seen by Marshall, Schwartz, Lawende, someone in Church street and possibly Smith.

[Mr Lucky]

re: peaked cap

I'm researching about street gangs of the era. I stumbled into an article saying that gangs would often wear a distinctive look. One of them, from Manchester, fancied wearing peaked caps.

Hi SirJohn

Those type of gangs were found only in the cotton producing regions around Manchester, they are known as "scuttlers", each gang wore distinctive clothing and maintained a territory - the gangs would simply attack each, they seemed to have no strong criminal links , seemingly interested in little other than violence.

They generally behaved more like football hooligan firms than criminal enterprises.

[lynn cates]

not frustrated

Hello Sir John. Thanks.

Oddly, I am not frustrated, but, rather, invigourated.

Cheers.
LC

[SirJohnFalstaff]

The Irish would not be considered foreign? I know that its technically not immigration as Ireland was in union at the time, but...

I thought Ireland was ruled by London until early 20th century.

[Damaso Marte]

I haven't been here long, and while I consider Stride a JtR victim, I just recently noticed that she's the only "immigrant" victim of the lot.

Could it be another argument ruling out Stride as a JtR victim?

Now would that make Jack too political?

The Irish would not be considered foreign? I know that its technically not immigration as Ireland was in union at the time, but...

[John Wheat]

I think its a bad idea to totally count or discount any witnesses. We don't know who did or who didn't see Jack.