The last witness

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

It would be interesting to know the subject of conversation between Doctor George Bagster Phillips and C.B. Stuart-Wortley, under-secretary for the Home Office, at the House of Commons on the evening of November 9th 1888.

Regards,

Simon

[paul emmett]

Yes, Bond used rigor, and I can't recollect ever hearing about temperatures with respect to any of the victims.

[Christine]

Christine
Not having known either of them,I cant answer that,but in 1888 Im guessing to a large part "estimated time of death" might have been mostly educated guesswork.Did the temperature of the room play any part in the estimated time of death?i.e the fire ...or lack of.
regards

I don't know, we're past my areas of expertise. But certainly by the LVP they had the technology (i.e., reasonably good thermometers) to do this; I just don't know when they first did it.

There are so many things that they could have done better, had they only known....

[Christine]

Hello, Christine.

If Phillips made a very serious mistake, what about Bond? Phillips put ETD between 5:00 and 6:00; Bond put it between 1:00 and 2:00. Shows this isn't an exact science.

Very good point. Do we know what Drs. Bond and Phillips were basing their assertions on? Bond seems to have been looking at rigor, which is less reliable than temperature.

By 8:30 in the morning there must have been a lot of people around and enough light to see by. Given all the people who seemed to be aware of the comings and goings in Miller's Court at 4:00 AM, Jack must have been peeping out the window to look for a time to make a run for it, not to mention risking someone peeping in to see whether Mary had earned enough to pay her rent....

[dougie]

Well, either he had her on ice, or Dr. Phillips made a very serious mistake. People have been known to make very serious mistakes from time to time, of course...but then, Caroline Maxwell was a person as well....

Who do you think was more reliable?

Christine
Not having known either of them,I cant answer that,but in 1888 Im guessing to a large part "estimated time of death" might have been mostly educated guesswork.Did the temperature of the room play any part in the estimated time of death?i.e the fire ...or lack of.
regards

[sdreid]

Since the body was "emptied" that pretty much threw all the TOD estimates up in the air.

[paul emmett]

Well, either he had her on ice, or Dr. Phillips made a very serious mistake.

Hello, Christine.

If Phillips made a very serious mistake, what about Bond? Phillips put ETD between 5:00 and 6:00; Bond put it between 1:00 and 2:00. Shows this isn't an exact science.

[Christine]

Is it possible, that the estimated time of death could have been THAT far out,or is that unthinkable?
regards

Well, either he had her on ice, or Dr. Phillips made a very serious mistake. People have been known to make very serious mistakes from time to time, of course...but then, Caroline Maxwell was a person as well....

Who do you think was more reliable?

[paul emmett]

It would also tend to rule out either Mr Blotchy or Mr Astrakhan as the murderer.

May is good for Wisconsin.

OK, OK--It would also tend to rule out Ms. Kelly as the murdered.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Paul,

Just fine thanks. How're things in Wisconsin?

It would also tend to rule out either Mr Blotchy or Mr Astrakhan as the murderer.

Regards,

Simon

[paul emmett]

Hi All,

One question we cannot avoid is—

What are the consequences of Caroline Maxwell being right?

Hello, Simon. I hope things are great with you.

Hmmmm . . . let me see. . .consequences?? Here's one: the fire would be later than anyone thought, and that, in turn, would explain, at least for me, why Abberline misjudged its intensity.

But, still, there must be other more direct consequences.

dougie, while I know not everyone does, I agree. The EDT's couldn't have been that far off.

[dougie]

Is it possible, that the estimated time of death could have been THAT far out,or is that unthinkable?
regards

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

One question we cannot avoid is—

What are the consequences of Caroline Maxwell being right?

Regards,

Simon

[sdreid]

Yes, Maxwell stayed with her account despite the challenges. If she was lying about knowing Kelly and Barnett then Joe would have blown her story and he didn't. I don't think she could have been mistaken either, unless she was blind drunk all the time, because she told the story right after the murder.

[paul emmett]

Hello, Bob, Simon, all.

Bob, I certianly agree with you that what "frienships" there were around the court were prmarily casual--indeed, Prater calls her acquaintance with MJK just that, casual, saying that she too did not speak to her often. Clearly that doesn't imply they didn't know each other. Maxwell and MJK call each other by first names, and I think that is why we can't say Maxwell was mistaken. Hell, they chatted about vomit and Kelly called her Carry. I think we have to say that Maxwell's either right or lieing. And I don't think there's enough in it for her to lie--espescially when they challenge her directly at the Inquest. She never even hedges. Also, if she is lieing, why admit that she had only talked to MJK only two times??

As far as subpoenas go, I, too, thought it was a command performance. I felt that Maxwell was commanded because they thought that under oath she might conform, as the Inquest threat to her suggests. And I think two things come from this: they must have given her statement some credence if they felt the need to "correct" it, AND, again, she didn't budge.