The last witness

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Richard,

She had her actions of the morning of the 9th checked, and verified, by the Whitechapel police.

That only seems to appear in one news report - that of the Times quoted earlier - and it doesn't actually say that the Whitechapel police verified her story. It only says "inquiries were made at the milkshop", or words to that effect. For all we know, Maxwell might have made those enquiries herself ("Don't ask me why, but was it yesterday or the day before I was in 'ere?"), it might have been by press or police. Alternatively, this corroboration might have been completely made up - either by her or by a newshound. The milkshop connection certainly doesn't seem to have been mentioned anywhere else, either in the press, her police statement or at the inquest, which is surprising in the context of the latter, given the controversial nature of her evidence.

It's worth noting that Abberline chipped in to add more detail to Maxwell's spiel twice during the inquest, when he confirmed the distance between Maxwell and her second sighting of Kelly. However, he omitted to interject with details of the alleged "milkshop/shawl" corroboration. Now, if the police had confirmed that story themselves, one would think that the fact would have been presented at that point in the proceedings.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Mrs Caroline Maxwell was the last witness, who claimed to have seen Mary Jane alive, to repeat myself.
She was interviewed by Abberline,
She was summoned to the inquest.
She was given a chance to have second thoughts by the coroner, yet rejected the offer,
She had her actions of the morning of the 9th checked, and verified, by the Whitechapel police.
Her statement was made on the very same day as the murder.
Yet dispite this, there are many amongst us, that believe this was all a red herring, and this alleged 'Respectable, level headed woman' interpreted either a false account, or was lacking in a ability to understand reality...
The whole crux of the matter is , we [ or most of us] tend to have a vivid picture of the timeline of events back in 1888, and any suggestion that paints a different picture to what has been implanted over the years in our heads, is thrown out, and rejected.
When I started this thread , I suggested that Caroline Maxwell was the last witness to Mary Kellys murder, and I maintain that, which leaves us with what?
Regards Richard.

[Observer]

Hi Sam

Hi Observer,

That's the problem, though - in order to place Kelly in a doss-house during the 4 months Maxwell claims to have known her requires a degree of speculation. At face value, however, her "explanation" for knowing Kelly is very weak.

I'd agree, very weak indeed.

all the best

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

Kelly was a prostitute, and I dare say some of her freinds were also prostitutes. I'd also say that some of them lived in doss houses, who's to say kelly didn't sit with them in the doss's communal kitchen chinwagging?

Hi Observer,

That's the problem, though - in order to place Kelly in a doss-house during the 4 months Maxwell claims to have known her requires a degree of speculation. At face value, however, her "explanation" for knowing Kelly is very weak.

[Observer]

Hi Sam

...interesting indeed, Mike, especially this bit:

[Coroner] "You knew her name and she knew yours ?"
[Mrs Maxwell] "Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house"

"By being about in the lodging-house", eh? We know that Kelly had been living at Miller's Court for much, much longer than the 4 months Maxwell claims to have known her. Therefore, shoe-horning speculation apart, how on earth could Maxwell's being "about in the lodging-house" have been a legitimate cause for her being on first-name terms with Kelly, when the latter wasn't "about in any lodging-house" herself?

Had the length of Kelly's tenure at Miller's Court been discussed in any depth at the inquest - which it wasn't - the coroner might well have picked up on this Maxwellian non-sequitur. As it is, and speaking only for myself, it's only now that I'm noticing it.

Kelly was a prostitute, and I dare say some of her freinds were also prostitutes. I'd also say that some of them lived in doss houses, who's to say kelly didn't sit with them in the doss's communal kitchen chinwagging?

all the best

Observer

[miss marple]

indentity

Who ever Caroline Maxwell spoke to, [and I believe she was sincere ]it wasn't Mary Kelly. We know Mary was a tall young woman, taller than average 5.8 and taller than most east end men,The body on the bed is tall. She had a magnificent head of hair. We know she was quiet feisty and got into rows.
So who did Maxwell have an early morning conversation with:
'' A pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion and rather pale.. she spoke with a kind of impediment''
Does that sound like our Mary? Don't think so.
An the thing that really annoys me is people saying Joe Barnett identified Mary by her eyes and ears, he did not. He identified her by her most distinctive feature her hair,' Her eyes and ear' her air in cockney, add an irish lilt you get ear. Being from a cockney background myself I can see how the phonetics were misheard. Barnett was first generation irish brought up in streets full of irish [ I know from the census]so his cockney would have had an irish lilt to it.
We know that there was one other named prostitute called Mary Kelly operating in Spitalfields, at the same time, who had syphillis in 1888.
Cheers Miss Marple

...interesting indeed, Mike, especially this bit:

[Coroner] "You knew her name and she knew yours ?"
[Mrs Maxwell] "Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house"

"By being about in the lodging-house", eh? We know that Kelly had been living at Miller's Court for much, much longer than the 4 months Maxwell claims to have known her. Therefore, shoe-horning speculation apart, how on earth could Maxwell's being "about in the lodging-house" have been a legitimate cause for her being on first-name terms with Kelly, when the latter wasn't "about in any lodging-house" herself?

Had the length of Kelly's tenure at Miller's Court been discussed in any depth at the inquest - which it wasn't - the coroner might well have picked up on this Maxwellian non-sequitur. As it is, and speaking only for myself, it's only now that I'm noticing it.

Hello Sam,

That was my take on it as well, but I did consider that perhaps she was claiming that Mary frequented Lodging Houses on the street...another unproven or unsubstaniated claim, but I gave her that leeway. Still...she does insist there was familarity...despite the 2 hellos in 4 months.

Its odd that she is so strong, in so many contradictory statements.

Cheers my friend.

[Sam Flynn]

Interesting when juxtaposed with the Telegraphs publication of the Inquest on the 13th

...interesting indeed, Mike, especially this bit:

[Coroner] "You knew her name and she knew yours ?"
[Mrs Maxwell] "Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house"

"By being about in the lodging-house", eh? We know that Kelly had been living at Miller's Court for much, much longer than the 4 months Maxwell claims to have known her. Therefore, shoe-horning speculation apart, how on earth could Maxwell's being "about in the lodging-house" have been a legitimate cause for her being on first-name terms with Kelly, when the latter wasn't "about in any lodging-house" herself?

Had the length of Kelly's tenure at Miller's Court been discussed in any depth at the inquest - which it wasn't - the coroner might well have picked up on this Maxwellian non-sequitur. As it is, and speaking only for myself, it's only now that I'm noticing it.

The maroon shawl, which was found in Kelly's room, IS in Maxwell's Inquest deposition, as is something else that relates to Michael's comment that many of MJK's aquaintances called her Mary Jane: Maxwell notes, " I knew the deceased for about four months as Mary Jane."

Hi Paul...all,

Interesting when juxtaposed with the Telegraphs publication of the Inquest on the 13th, and Caroline Maxwell says...

[Coroner] "Did you speak to her ?"
[Mrs Maxwell] "Yes; it was an unusual thing to see her up. She was a young woman who never associated with any one. I spoke across the street, "What, Mary, brings you up so early ?" She said, "Oh, Carrie, I do feel so bad."

Followed by,...

[Coroner] "And yet you say you had only spoken to her twice previously; you knew her name and she knew yours ?"
[Mrs Maxwell] "Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house"

Which doesnt really jive with "we only spoke twice" in 4 months, she says it like we always used to see each other round there.

I dont know why she stays so vehement. With the lack of any real exchanges between the two, Caroline does seem to "know" a lot about Mary. Maybe by watching her occassionally, perhaps down the length of her Victorian nose. We can guess that women in Marys line of work were considered immoral by the married and respectable women of the neighbourhoods, yet " Carrie" passes no judgements.

Maybe she wanted to be a part of this...maybe she thought she did speak to Mary Jane Kelly, but the likihood is not, and that is supported by statements and evidence that was not "different" than all the other accounts. Bonds findings arent contradicted by any statements of the courtyard that night, except for the statements of Caroline Maxwell about Friday morning.

Cheers mates.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Paul,

The maroon shawl, which was found in Kelly's room...

The only source for the "maroon crossover" having been found in Kelly's room appears to be the Times of 12th November (see Dougie's snippet above), and the story doesn't seem to be corroborated anywhere else. It's possible that the account of Maria Harvey (or "Julia", as the same edition of the Times names her) leaving behind "a pawn ticket for a shawl" at 13 Miller's Court might have been conflated with Maxwell's story, and distorted to the "crossover was found in Kelly's room".

[paul emmett]

The maroon shawl, which was found in Kelly's room, IS in Maxwell's Inquest deposition, as is something else that relates to Michael's comment that many of MJK's aquaintances called her Mary Jane: Maxwell notes, " I knew the deceased for about four months as Mary Jane."

[dougie]

Of course the newspaper report may be in error, but its not a case of misreading it,it says what it says.As I said its the first time Ive seen the reference to the milk shop and the crossover (to others maybe its nothing new,I dont know)Was it a "concoction" by the newspaper editor?

[Bob Hinton]

More errors

The problem with using snippets like this is people generally do not read them properly. Maxwell made two statements, one to the police on the day of the murder and the other in court at the inquest. It is these two statements that we must rely and neither of them mentions anything about going to the milk shop.

Also this extract tells us that Maxwell on her return saw Kelly talking to a “short, dark man at the top of the court”.

This directly contradicts both of her previous statements that say quite clearly that she saw Kelly with the man outside the Britannia pub – an entirely different location.

This is the problem with Maxwell, people point to the number of accounts written and somehow try and use that as a proof of accuracy, it isn’t. Repeating an error doesn’t correct it.

Hi again,

Thanks for the well wishes Paul, things are going along swimmingly, and I hope well back at you. I guess we sit on different sides of this fence Paul, although I readily admit that an ID of "'air" and "eyes" by her lover isnt the best we could ask for, he was sure. As to McCarthy, since her recently ex-lover could only identify her by two features, she was basically beyond recognition...as far as he was concerned.

Ive questioned how he could not recognize her hands, or feet, or her calf...parts of her he had seen almost as often as hair and eyes, and that were still undamaged. But thats me questioning being able to identify someone under those circumstances, and Im not Joe Barnett on Nov 9th in Millers Court. He made his call...knowing the importance.

Now, Mrs Maxwell stated on the stand that she would be willing to swear to her statements, and was reminded she was sworn in.....she also mentions that Mary called her "Carrie". Whats the likliehood that 2 chance "how do you do's" in 4 months results in Mary using her nickname? And she called her "Mary"....when we have statements that indicate that many of Marys acquaintance level associates knew her as "Mary Jane".

Its the cumulative issues with Caroline I think, and they do not favour her speaking with the Mary Jane Kelly, declared dead in room 13 of Millers Court at approx 1:30pm November 9th, 1888. Maybe Mary O'Kelly from 16 Dorset St, but not our Mary Jane.

Cheers bud.

[paul emmett]

Hello, Michael.

Long time, no . . .. So long that I think we both forgot my question of you. I went back and checked, and my query of a month ago was about the body in the bed. So rigor and all that isn't at issue. It's just Barnett, McCarthy and Hutchinson, not Bowyer, right? On the other side are Maxwell, the unnamed woman from the above post and Maurice Lewis. I think the teams are fairly evenly matched.

Barnett, a practiced judge of ears and eyes; McCarthy, who told at least one reporter that MJK was "cut up beyond recognition"; and Hutchinson, who ....well we all know what most folks, including yourself, think of George. So I think that my point of a while back was that this is not overwhelming evidence. And it's no wonder some people here go with Maxwell.

I hope all is well--no, super well--with you.