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  • #91
    Originally posted by Tecs View Post
    ...

    If he was mistaken, then the only possibility is that the body was someone else. Which leads to-

    4. O. K. Let's get one thing very clear, I'm not, for a second, saying that there was some grand conspiracy or that Mary was a secret agent etc, but consider for a moment if Maxwell was right. Then the obvious conclusion is that somebody else was murdered in Mary's room. If there was no other reason to think this then we could abandon it without too much thought. But there is. Were other women known to use Mary's room? Yes. Is the time of death problematic? Yes. Is there a witness to corroborate Mary being alive after the body was dead? Yes. Is that witness supported by other witnesses? Yes/maybe. Add in the other little extras and an alternative scenario is not outrageous. Again, to be crystal clear, I don't believe for a moment that Mary woke up that day and thought "I'm going to do a runner tonight." But the possibility that she came back to her room, found the body, maybe shrieked "Oh, murder!" went outside and vomited, collected her thoughts and realised that, hold on, everyone will assume it's me, this is an opportunity. The only thing she would need would be for Barnet to do one last thing for her and mis-identify the body and she could dissappear, leaving the East end, her debts and that particular life behind. And didn't one of the witnesses who said they saw Kelly in the pub that morning say she was with Barnet? (From memory she called him by another name but a name he was known by, apologies if I've got that totally wrong.)
    Anyone who says that it is ridiculous or, as above, an April fool is with respect not opening their mind enough, in my opinion.
    ...
    And by extension, that would mean the real Mary Kelly would be found alive & well in the 1891 census. Which is exactly what we find.
    Regards, Jon S.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

      Hi eten
      agree hard to beleive Maxwell confused the day as it was that very morning and she tied it into other activity she was doing that morning. and hard to beleive she got the wrong mary (which I beleived to be the case prior) when she describes what Mary was wearing accurately. shes at the inquest and does not back down.

      and yet all other evidence points to a night time murder. Marys high activity meeting with men/suspects, lots of witnesses who saw and heard her up and about, the cries of murder, the large hot fire with burnt clothes. and on the other side-the lack of/tight times for a morning daylight murder, the lack of witnesses who saw her up and about, her being ill etc.

      Its a conundrum for sure.

      If anything is fishy with maxwell I again come back to a question I posed earlier-did not a ripper hoax letter come from Maxwells address?
      Cox's description of Mary's clothes and Maxwell's does not quite tally. Presumably the velvet body and maroon shawl-Maxwell got burned in the fireplace.
      I believe the lurking man seen by Lewis at 2:30 am was JTR trying to get in Mary's room,but that's another story.
      Last edited by Varqm; 09-26-2022, 04:52 PM.
      Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced,it started civil society).
      M. Pacana

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

        Yeah, a letter from Miller's Court certainly rings a bell with me too.

        I'll have a look through "Letters from Hell" when I get chance to see if I can find it.....
        I beleive the letter came from where maxwell lived at the time-the lodging house across the street, not millers court.
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by etenguy View Post

          Ms Diddles

          Good to see you here.

          You are right - the idea that someone else was killed cannot be lightly dismissed if we accept Maxwell is accurate. But then some other behaviours have to be considered:
          a) why did Mary wander the streets and talk to Maxwell if she was taking the opportunity to abscond - she would surely want people to think her dead.
          b) why did Barnett identify the corpse as MJK, was he involved in a cover up
          c) why did the police not suppress Maxwell's evidence - presumably means no police involved in the cover up

          For me, MJK's reported behaviour that morning is the strongest indicator that she was not planning to abscond and hope people thought the body found was her. I think it more likely she was killed later than first thought. But it is just my view as I see the evidence currently - I do not dismiss other possibilities.




          Hi Eten,

          Yep, those are indeed the issues which are thrown up if one surmises that the Miller's Court victim is not the person known as MJK!

          They are also issues which I have been contemplating for some time since I realised that I lean quite heavily towards Maxwell's credibility (and more lightly away from later ToD and towards the victim not being MJK).

          Of course, I would love to say that I have composed a brilliant and incontrovertible theory which ticks all the boxes and explains everything with perfect clarity.

          You'll be unsurprised to learn that nothing could be further from the truth!!!!

          I don't personally see an official cover up or conspiracy here.

          I'm with Tecs in that a see it as a seized opportunity taken by Mary on the spur of the moment, perhaps in collaboration with Barnett.

          I'm not saying that I believe this definitely happened, but I regard it as a genuine possibility.

          I find myself unable to "get past" Maxwell too!

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

            I beleive the letter came from where maxwell lived at the time-the lodging house across the street, not millers court.
            Ahhhh, fair enough.

            I have probably misremembered.

            I'll see if I can find it....

            Comment


            • #96
              https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...trange-is-this

              Letter from Maxwell's address.

              Comment


              • #97
                What I find most odd with Caroline Maxwell's statement is the following:

                Mary had lived at Miller's Court for 10 months. Caroline Maxwell lived at 26 Dorset Street and surely would have known the residents in the court at almost any given time, due to the proximity.

                At the inquest, Caroline Maxwell stated this:

                I knew the deceased for about four months.

                And this:

                And yet you say you had only spoken to her twice previously; you knew her name and she knew yours ? - Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house.


                So, according to Maxwell, Mary lived in Miller's Court for 6 months without Maxwell knowing about it even though Miller's Court was entered by the passageway running through 26 and 27 Dorset Street.

                And, Maxwell stated they spoke twice in the 10 months Mary lived at Miller's Court, yet according to Maxwell they were on pretty friendly terms, e.g. during their brief exchange in the morning Mary supposedly called her Carrie.

                In addition, Maxwell stated she knew enough about Mary to know that it was unusual for Mary to be up and about at that time.

                It follows that Maxwell paints a picture of knowing a lot about Mary, i.e. on friendly terms, knowing what time Mary was usually up and about around Dorset Street, knowing Mary "by being about in the lodging house"; yet in Maxwell's own words she didn't know that Mary existed in the first 6 months she lived at Miller's Court and only ever spoke to her twice in 10 months.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Curiously, Liz Prater had lived in the court for about 4 months

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                    Didnt a hoax letter come from maxwells address?
                    That is correct, Abby. The Ripper case has quite a few eerie coincidences like this.
                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post
                      What I find most odd with Caroline Maxwell's statement is the following:

                      Mary had lived at Miller's Court for 10 months. Caroline Maxwell lived at 26 Dorset Street and surely would have known the residents in the court at almost any given time, due to the proximity.

                      At the inquest, Caroline Maxwell stated this:

                      I knew the deceased for about four months.

                      And this:

                      And yet you say you had only spoken to her twice previously; you knew her name and she knew yours ? - Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house.


                      So, according to Maxwell, Mary lived in Miller's Court for 6 months without Maxwell knowing about it even though Miller's Court was entered by the passageway running through 26 and 27 Dorset Street.

                      And, Maxwell stated they spoke twice in the 10 months Mary lived at Miller's Court, yet according to Maxwell they were on pretty friendly terms, e.g. during their brief exchange in the morning Mary supposedly called her Carrie.

                      In addition, Maxwell stated she knew enough about Mary to know that it was unusual for Mary to be up and about at that time.

                      It follows that Maxwell paints a picture of knowing a lot about Mary, i.e. on friendly terms, knowing what time Mary was usually up and about around Dorset Street, knowing Mary "by being about in the lodging house"; yet in Maxwell's own words she didn't know that Mary existed in the first 6 months she lived at Miller's Court and only ever spoke to her twice in 10 months.
                      Correction to this, Caroline Maxwell lived at 14 Dorset Street, which was opposite Miller's Court.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                        Curiously, Liz Prater had lived in the court for about 4 months
                        yes some have posited in the past that maxwell thought Prater was Kelly
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                          That is correct, Abby. The Ripper case has quite a few eerie coincidences like this.
                          Thanks Harry and Diddles. very strange
                          The number of sub mysteries in this case (and the torso cas) is astonishing.
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • Im wondering if the mystery of maxwell getting marys clothes right might not be that what Mary wore was fairly common and that perhaps its still a case of mistaken ID? how common was a shawl, bodice and skirt but no hat? perhaps that was what Prater was wearing and it was prater who maxwell thought was kelly??

                            Did Prater ever stay at maxwells lodging house?

                            I dont know just thinking out loud.
                            "Is all that we see or seem
                            but a dream within a dream?"

                            -Edgar Allan Poe


                            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                            -Frederick G. Abberline

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post
                              What I find most odd with Caroline Maxwell's statement is the following:

                              Mary had lived at Miller's Court for 10 months. Caroline Maxwell lived at 26 Dorset Street and surely would have known the residents in the court at almost any given time, due to the proximity.

                              At the inquest, Caroline Maxwell stated this:

                              I knew the deceased for about four months.

                              And this:

                              And yet you say you had only spoken to her twice previously; you knew her name and she knew yours ? - Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house.


                              So, according to Maxwell, Mary lived in Miller's Court for 6 months without Maxwell knowing about it even though Miller's Court was entered by the passageway running through 26 and 27 Dorset Street.

                              And, Maxwell stated they spoke twice in the 10 months Mary lived at Miller's Court, yet according to Maxwell they were on pretty friendly terms, e.g. during their brief exchange in the morning Mary supposedly called her Carrie.

                              In addition, Maxwell stated she knew enough about Mary to know that it was unusual for Mary to be up and about at that time.

                              It follows that Maxwell paints a picture of knowing a lot about Mary, i.e. on friendly terms, knowing what time Mary was usually up and about around Dorset Street, knowing Mary "by being about in the lodging house"; yet in Maxwell's own words she didn't know that Mary existed in the first 6 months she lived at Miller's Court and only ever spoke to her twice in 10 months.
                              you mean twice in Four months?

                              anyway knowing someone for four months and speaking to them twice dosnt really seem like she knew her that well, especially if mary had lived their for six months prior(without maxwell knowing about her) and ten months total. again I ask-did she mistake prater for Mary?
                              "Is all that we see or seem
                              but a dream within a dream?"

                              -Edgar Allan Poe


                              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                              -Frederick G. Abberline

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                                yes some have posited in the past that maxwell thought Prater was Kelly
                                Hi Abby.

                                Prater and Maxwell both attended the inqiest though, so surely Maxwell would have realised her mistake at that point had she originally thought Prater was Mary?

                                It's all a conundrum for sure!

                                Comment

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