Eva Harstein

[GBinOz]

hi debs
thanks. well since no one at the inquest mentioned grapes and the drs said they found no traces in her stomach, that pretty much settles it for me. Packer probably sold grapes to some couple that night but not to Liz. IMHO his fabricated attention seeking stories kicked off the whole grape wild goose chase.

Hi Abby,

Not quite accurate. The Doctors found no pips or skins in her stomach. Most people spit out pips and I have known a few who don't like the skins on dark grapes. There would have been time for the pulp to be digested. There are too many witnesses referring to grapes to just discount the possiblity out of hand. Additionally, Packer saw the flower that Stride was wearing, unlike Brown and Marshall.

Cheers, George

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby
Thanks
I seem to recall that the mention of seeing grapes in Liz's hand was restricted to press reports but that Diemschitz didn't mention them in his inquest evidence. I may be wrong. Drs Phillips and Blackwall were specifically asked about whether or not Liz had consumed grapes and both concluded they could find no trace of grape skin or pip.
There could be many reasons that grapes were reported and there have been a million and one threads on the subject over the years, including that they were mistaking cashous for grapes etc. and that grape skins and pips could be spat out. There's a counter argument for most scenarios on both sides.
Debs

hi debs
thanks. well since no one at the inquest mentioned grapes and the drs said they found no traces in her stomach, that pretty much settles it for me. Packer probably sold grapes to some couple that night but not to Liz. IMHO his fabricated attention seeking stories kicked off the whole grape wild goose chase.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs, Interesting stuff.

That’s right, If Liz did have cashews or grapes she doesn’t appear to have consumed any of them if the post mortem report on stomach contents are accurate.

“The stomach was large and the mucous membrane only congested. It contained partly digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous powder”

Edit: incase it’s of interest…

Cheese & potatoes digestion time 60-90 minutes.
Grapes 30 minutes
Cashews 120 minutes

Thanks Yabs

I think that traces of Cachous may have been evident in the stomach. My understanding is that Cashous were a lozenge type breath freshener and Victorian Chemist and Druggist recipes list one of the main ingredients in the recipe as starch, as in 'farinaceous powder'?

Debs

[Yabs]

Hi Abby
Thanks
I seem to recall that the mention of seeing grapes in Liz's hand was restricted to press reports but that Diemschitz didn't mention them in his inquest evidence. I may be wrong. Drs Phillips and Blackwall were specifically asked about whether or not Liz had consumed grapes and both concluded they could find no trace of grape skin or pip.
There could be many reasons that grapes were reported and there have been a million and one threads on the subject over the years, including that they were mistaking cashous for grapes etc. and that grape skins and pips could be spat out. There's a counter argument for most scenarios on both sides.
Debs

Hi Debs, Interesting stuff.

That’s right, If Liz did have cashews or grapes she doesn’t appear to have consumed any of them if the post mortem report on stomach contents are accurate.

“The stomach was large and the mucous membrane only congested. It contained partly digested food, apparently consisting of cheese, potato, and farinaceous powder”

Edit: incase it’s of interest…

Cheese & potatoes digestion time 60-90 minutes.
Grapes 30 minutes
Cashews 120 minutes

[Debra A]

Great stuff as usual Debs! Did any of the witnesses at the inquest report seeing grapes? Is it possible they mistook the cashoo for grapes? Are all these grape sightings perhaps attention seekers parrotting Packer?

I too find it odd so many reported seeing grapes when apparently there werent any.

Hi Abby
Thanks
I seem to recall that the mention of seeing grapes in Liz's hand was restricted to press reports but that Diemschitz didn't mention them in his inquest evidence. I may be wrong. Drs Phillips and Blackwall were specifically asked about whether or not Liz had consumed grapes and both concluded they could find no trace of grape skin or pip.
There could be many reasons that grapes were reported and there have been a million and one threads on the subject over the years, including that they were mistaking cashous for grapes etc. and that grape skins and pips could be spat out. There's a counter argument for most scenarios on both sides.
Debs

[Darryl Kenyon]

I don't want to sound dismissive or anything and it is a question, but couldn't the grape stalks have come from someone else ? We know that Packer said he sold grapes to Liz but reasonably he could have sold grapes to anyone during that particular day who passed through Dutfields yard and that's were the grape stalks came from. Or am I missing something ?
Perhaps the Cachous got mistook for grapes, as has been mentioned before. Someone then sees grape stalks and the story takes hold .

Regards Darryl

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,

Good stuff.

I've always thought there was something in the various grape stories. It seems such an odd thing for all these disparate [but not desperate!] witnesses to imagine or invent. This was another sensational murder, so one would expect to see blood, and yet they found grapes.

I could understand it if dark coloured grapes had been mistaken for blood, but not t'other way round.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz
Thanks
I must admit, I've always been of the opposite opinion- that Packer fabricated his story in some way, especially as both his, and Eva Harstein and her sister's stories were connected in some way to Charles Grande. That Eva did exist and had legitimate access to the yard and perhaps even lived there in 1888 puts a slightly different slant on things perhaps. I still try to look at things with the idea that the grapes existed as well. Though there is still the problem, for me, of how the grapes spotted by Deimschitz and Kozebrodski became just a grape stalk? Do ponies eat grapes? That's not a joke question either!
There's also an added bit of intrigue for me now in that Eva's husband is probably the same man listed in the Special Branch ledgers in connection with belonging to the club and it could be speculated that the stories of Eva finding a grape stalk have a connection to the clubmen's reports of seeing grapes.
Lots of possibilities..
Debs x

[caz]

Although this is uncharacteristic of me, I agree with Caz. The grape stalk stories seemingly cannot be discarded completely, Mortimer mentions them as well. Not that it validates Packers story, that still smacks of fabrication, but interesting that so many people must have seen the same thing.

That of course would also apply to the preponderance of stories from attendees that they saw Liz lying there by 12:45 at the latest. Which again, coincidentally, Mortimers statement does not contradict.

This may sound like sour grapes, Michael, but could we please try and stick with the fruit on this thread, instead of wandering off onto fruitless flights of fancy, such as your four phantom witnesses, who all checked their smart phones the instant they found Louis standing over Liz in the yard, and noted the time was 12.45 - fifteen minutes before Fanny Mortimer would heard Louis arriving with his pony and cart?

Thank you.

[Michael W Richards]

Great stuff as usual Debs! Did any of the witnesses at the inquest report seeing grapes? Is it possible they mistook the cashoo for grapes? Are all these grape sightings perhaps attention seekers parrotting Packer?

I too find it odd so many reported seeing grapes when apparently there werent any.

Like so much in this area of study "apparently" is often an attempt to sidestep the actual facts without being proven wrong absolutely. Apparently...according to many witnesses...there were in fact grapes there.

[Abby Normal]

Great stuff as usual Debs! Did any of the witnesses at the inquest report seeing grapes? Is it possible they mistook the cashoo for grapes? Are all these grape sightings perhaps attention seekers parrotting Packer?

I too find it odd so many reported seeing grapes when apparently there werent any.

[Michael W Richards]

Although this is uncharacteristic of me, I agree with Caz. The grape stalk stories seemingly cannot be discarded completely, Mortimer mentions them as well. Not that it validates Packers story, that still smacks of fabrication, but interesting that so many people must have seen the same thing.

That of course would also apply to the preponderance of stories from attendees that they saw Liz lying there by 12:45 at the latest. Which again, coincidentally, Mortimers statement does not contradict.

[caz]

Hi Debs,

Good stuff.

I've always thought there was something in the various grape stories. It seems such an odd thing for all these disparate [but not desperate!] witnesses to imagine or invent. This was another sensational murder, so one would expect to see blood, and yet they found grapes.

I could understand it if dark coloured grapes had been mistaken for blood, but not t'other way round.

Love,

Caz
X

[Debra A]

Thanks guys.

I think there are a few interesting things brought up by the research.
The obvious one being the identification of the witness Eva Harstein as the daughter of Isaac and Kate Har(t)steinwho lived in Dutfield's Yard. There have been questions in the past about how Eva and her sister had such a good view of the crime scene in Dutfield's yard when it was closed off to the public and speculation that they may have lived in Dutfiled's Yard itself at 40 Berner Street and not the reported 14. The wedding certificate shows that Eva was certainly living with her family in Dutfield's Yard in 1890, of course, that doesn't necessarily mean the same applied in 1888 but it supports the possibility. It also shows that Eva actually existed, was a local and was not someone shipped in by Charles Grande to claim to have seen the grape stalk at the crime scene that Grande and Bachelor would later retrieve from the drains.

Eva's husband Morris Mendlestein possibly being a member of the Berner Street Club, if the Special Branch ledger refers to him, which seems highly likely, then it shows a link between the club, where at least two of the members claim to have seen grapes in Stride's hand and a witness who saw a grape stalk.

Herlock- At least one record in the US claims Morris Mendelstein was a naturalised US citizen, I haven't been able to confirm this but he apparently lived in the US before he came over to London and married Evan Harstein. I think it was always his intention to return and it may have been money related, as you say, and wanting to set up a home before his wife and infant arrived seems sensible. I do wonder what brought him to London though.

Debs

[Herlock Sholmes]

"The next evidence gleaned by the detectives was that of a Mrs. Rosenfield and her sister, Miss Eva Harstein, both residing at 14 Berner street. Mrs. Rosenfield deposes that early on Sunday morning she passed the spot on which the body had lain, and observed on the ground close by a grape stalk stained with blood. Miss Eva Harstein gave corroborative evidence as to the finding of the grape stalk close to where the body lay. She also stated that, after the removal of the body of the murdered woman she saw a few small petals of a white natural flower lying quite close to the spot where the body had rested."
Evening News London, U.K. 4 October 1888

Eva Harstein:

Marriage solemnized at Sandys Row Synagogue, In the Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields according to the usages of the Jews on 26th October 1890
Groom Morris Mondelstein 25, bachelor, cabinet maker, residence at time of marriage 40 B Berner Street, father Mya Mondelstein, deceased, general dealer.
Bride Eva Hartstein, 20, spinster, residence at time of marriage 40 B Berner Street, father Isaac Hartstein, tailor.
Morris signed his name as Morris Mandelstein and Eva made her mark. In the presence of Israel Gre?nberg and A Winkel

Interestingly, Eva's husband Morris Mendelstein(plus variant spellings) may be the same Morris Mendlestein mention in the Special Branch ledgers as being a member of the Berner Street Club. Intelligence received on various clubs and organisations and their activities and memberships was listed in these, including the Berner Street club. The undated entry reads: Mendlestein Morris, member of Berner Street Club. It will be remembered that two of the Berner Street club members, Deimschitz and Kozebrodski claimed to have seen grapes in Stride's hand when they viewed the body.

In the 1891 census the couple were living at 5 Pedley Street, Bethnal Green- Eva born Russia c1871, Morris also born Russia
Also on the 1891 census at 40 Berner Stable Yard Isaac Harstein , 40, presser, born Poland, wife Kate, 50 born Poland, daughters Matilda 1?, Annie 9 (Eva's parents and siblings)

In 1892, Eva Mendelstein, nee Harstein, and her first child sailed on the Majestic to join her husband Morris who was an American citizen. The family settled in the Bronx and Morris, who was later described as blind, ran a newspaper stand and candy store. The couple had six children all but the first child, Dinah, born in the U.S. Their son Meiyer, later changing his name to Michael joined the NYPD, while another son, Edward, became a journalist. There are many American records and documents relating to the family in the Bronx and in Florida. One U.S. census record shows parents Isaac and Kate Harstein at the same address as Eva and Morris and immigration records for her married sister Matilda confirm the link.

Debs

Interesting post Debs. I wonder why Morris went to first? I’m guessing that it was a cash issue and that he wanted to try and set up a home first before sending her the cash to join him?

[drstrange169]

Useful and interesting post, thanks Debra.