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  • #31
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

    Three witnesses, including Fanny. But Louis didn't mention any grapes at the inquest. Are you suggesting that the police convinced him to keep quiet about them?
    Hi Joshua,

    No, I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying that it is frustrating that there are so many contradictory statements, even from the same people contradicting themselves. There must have been some contraversy at the time as the Coroner at the inquest specifically asked both doctors about grapes.

    Cheers, George
    “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

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    • #32
      I raise you 4 witnesses! That's the number (or 5?) that I remember quoted by Bruce Robinson in his book "They All Love Jack".

      Don't have the book with me right now, but will check, and post his list of witnesses etc here later.

      Working from memory, just to give me some wriggle room!

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
        No, I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying that it is frustrating that there are so many contradictory statements, even from the same people contradicting themselves. There must have been some contraversy at the time as the Coroner at the inquest specifically asked both doctors about grapes.
        The doctors were only asked about grapes when they were recalled to the inquest, presumably as a result of Packer's interview being published on the 4th. Their primary evidence was given before this and they made no mention of grapes, only clots of blood on her right hand. Before this, Diemschutz had also made no mention of grapes at the ibquest, despite doing so in a press interview earlier. It does seem a pity that he wasn't also recalled and likewise asked about them.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post
          I raise you 4 witnesses! That's the number (or 5?) that I remember quoted by Bruce Robinson in his book "They All Love Jack".

          Don't have the book with me right now, but will check, and post his list of witnesses etc here later.

          Working from memory, just to give me some wriggle room!
          I can't recall any other witnesses mentioning Stride holding grapes, other than Louis, Isaac and Fanny, but I'm happy to know more if you can find any. There's also Packer who said he sold her grapes, of course, but they were in a bag at the time. Plus the two detectives who said they found the grape stalk in the drain, and the two witnesses Eva and her sister who apparently saw the stalk on the ground after the body had been removed.
          Any more?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

            I can't recall any other witnesses mentioning Stride holding grapes, other than Louis, Isaac and Fanny, but I'm happy to know more if you can find any. There's also Packer who said he sold her grapes, of course, but they were in a bag at the time. Plus the two detectives who said they found the grape stalk in the drain, and the two witnesses Eva and her sister who apparently saw the stalk on the ground after the body had been removed.
            Any more?
            I'll take a look and come back tomorrow.

            BTW, I just come across a post from Simon Wood's from 2008(!!!). Relates to Packer, so I thought you and others might find it interesting, as I do.

            Here you go:

            https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip.../1051-veracity.

            It's on my to do list to compare the mentioned Swanson report and the unsigned Packer statement that appears to be taken
            by A.C.B. at SY.


            Last edited by mpriestnall; 09-15-2021, 05:15 PM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post

              I'll take a look and come back tomorrow.

              BTW, I just come across a post from Simon Wood's from 2008(!!!). Relates to Packer, so I thought you and others might find it interesting, as I do.

              Here you go:

              https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip.../1051-veracity.

              It's on my to do list to compare the mentioned Swanson report and the unsigned Packer statement that appears to be taken
              by A.C.B. at SY.

              Simon Wood's description of Swanson is interesting: "a desk jockey and, as such, little more than official blotting paper—absorbed whatever he was told". I've also seen McNaughten describes as "just an ex-tea merchant". The old boy network for the ruling class?

              Cheers, George
              “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                Simon Wood's description of Swanson is interesting: "a desk jockey and, as such, little more than official blotting paper—absorbed whatever he was told". I've also seen McNaughten describes as "just an ex-tea merchant". The old boy network for the ruling class?

                Cheers, George
                The blotting paper remark is a good one. What was Bruce Robinson's name for Swanson? "Swifty Nib" or something? Didn't realize writing materials were so useful for insults!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post

                  The blotting paper remark is a good one. What was Bruce Robinson's name for Swanson? "Swifty Nib" or something? Didn't realize writing materials were so useful for insults!
                  IIRC it was "Shifty Nib"!

                  I remember it made me smile when reading that!

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

                    IIRC it was "Shifty Nib"!

                    I remember it made me smile when reading that!
                    Your'e right Ms Diddles. Thanks.

                    "Swifty Nib" sounds more of a compliment than an insult!
                    Last edited by mpriestnall; 09-16-2021, 05:17 PM.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                      I can't recall any other witnesses mentioning Stride holding grapes, other than Louis, Isaac and Fanny, but I'm happy to know more if you can find any. There's also Packer who said he sold her grapes, of course, but they were in a bag at the time. Plus the two detectives who said they found the grape stalk in the drain, and the two witnesses Eva and her sister who apparently saw the stalk on the ground after the body had been removed.
                      Any more?
                      That'll be PC Lamb then.

                      Bruce Robinson's "They All Love Jack" deals with the grapes between pages 250 - 255

                      B.R. lists the following newspapers mentioning the grapes:
                      The Morning Advertiser, the Evening News, the Daily News, the Globe, the Telegraph and Times.

                      Walter Dew: Page 250: B.R. quotes Walter Dew 'In the little Berner Street Court, quite close to where the body was found,
                      detectives searching every inch of the ground came upon a number of grape skins and stones.'
                      Source: "I Caught Crippen" (p.141)

                      Police Constable Lamb: 'On arrival of that officer,' reported the Telegraph, 'he perceived that the woman was lying
                      on her left side, and was clutching some grapes in her right hand and sweetmeats in her left.'
                      Source: Daily Telegraph, Monday, 1 October 1888

                      Isaac Kosebrodski: 'While the doctor was examining the body,' recalled Kosebrodsky, 'I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and sweets in her left.'
                      Source: Evening News, 1 October 1888

                      Fanny Mortimer: 'The woman appeared to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes
                      and some sweets.'
                      Source: Evening News, 1 October 1888

                      Louis Diemschutz: ...'her hands were clenched, and when the doctor opened them I saw that she had been holding grapes in one hand and sweetmeats in the other.'
                      Source: Evening News, 1 October 1888 (https://wiki.casebook.org/louis_diemschutz.html) and "They All Love Jack" page 253

                      Packer, like you said, and of course, the grape stalks seen by Mrs Rosefield and Miss Eva Hartstein as per the OP.

                      ++

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by DJA View Post
                        Worked for May & Baker.
                        Hi DJA

                        I worked at May and Baker back in the 1980s in Dagenham. Its not a name I have heard for a long time, I think they were taken over by Rhone Poulenc in the 1980s also. It was a massive site, so even if we were both there at the same time we likely never crossed paths - but we might just have done.

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                        • #42
                          This was in Oz,1970s.
                          Used to be security on the cocaine deliveries to hospitals,amongst other duties.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by DJA View Post

                            Many tablets have a Clag like base which is made in a bucket from starch and boiling hot water.
                            That is then tipped into a mixing machine with the important ingredients for a few hours.
                            The mix is then dried overnight,sieved and put through a tableting machine.

                            Lozenges like cachous are manufactured differently and contain little or no starch.

                            Worked for May & Baker.
                            Okay, thank you, then based on your experience and knowledge, which side of which countervailing argument concerning which item, grapes or cachous, do you lean toward, please? Or both.

                            Paddy



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                            • #44
                              Both.

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