Let´s talk about that identification again

[Monty]

I'm suggesting Swanson had the experience and ability to deal with the case, hence his appointment.

Classy as ever Simon

Monty

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lechmere,

In which particular ways does Swanson's Seaside Home reference make perfect sense?

Regards,

Simon

[Lechmere]

Yes DSS was very clear headed and his Seaside Home reference makes perfect sense.
I agree that the murders were to an extent regarded separately, but at the same time they were pretty much immediately linked to each other in the minds of the police.
This case wasn’t unprecedented? What large scale, cross boundary, multiple crime investigation preceded it?
Are you seriously suggesting DSS’s role during this investigation was just all in a day’s work for him?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Monty,

Well played.

I await with trembling heart.

Regards,

Simon

[Monty]

As you stated to Rob House earlier this week Simon, I'm afraid you will have to be patient.

Monty

[Simon Wood]

Hi Monty,

Interesting.

Could you cite an earlier example of Swanson's "structured approach and his phenomenal ability to recall and analyse"?

Regards,

Simon

[Monty]

Most people would be correct Edward,

Swanson was an experienced Investigator with many years experience. He was involved in many cases and often multitasked on more than one during any given period.

Each case within this series was treated as a seperate investigation, as with all murder cases no matter what. This case was not the first multiple murder case of its kind, so to state it was unprecidented isn't entirely correct.

His structured approach and his phenominal ability to recall and analyse made him prime for the role as Chief Investigator. Warren was no fool, he saw Swanson as the ideal man to Co-ordinate and collate. It wasn't by chance he was chosen.

You have misinterpreted Warrens report and questioned Swansons position in the case. That's up to you, the simple fact is you are plain wrong. Swanson has the record, the experience and his involvement in the case is clear, and recorded.

Monty

[Lechmere]

Hi Monty!
I say what I see!

I'm sure his family held DSS in high regard.

I am aware that this case was unprecedented for the police at that time. It was literally without precedent.
The methodology of how best to conduct such a case was unknown.
The police had to make it up as they went along.
Swanson seemed to them to be a methodical kind of guy and so he was given the job of sifting through and making sense of all the incoming and outgoing paperwork – all the crank letters all the leads, all the local reports, all the instructions. Without an adequate and established filing system for dealing with this it could only have one consequence. It all passed through his desk. In the Yorkshire Ripper investigation with their card index system, and a big team of experienced detectives there was also information overload.
He worked long hours – very long hours and then had to liaise with the City Police into the small hours, and then start again next morning with inadequate sleep.
For DSS to have avoided muddle he would have had to have been superhuman. And he wasn’t.

PS 'most people' seem to think DSS was 'incharge' of the investigation and he blatantly wasn't - no matter how many people say he was and how high and mighty they think they are. This sort of blinkered thinking is not unknown in human endeavour.

[Monty]

The above opinion of Swanson flies in the face of what is known of him, his work, what his peers state and his families perception.

However, y'all know him better than any of those I mention.

Monty

[Lechmere]

I am doubtful that there was a Seaside Home identification.
I slightly dubious about the whole thing ever happening.
If the reference to it can be taken at face value as genuinely representing the memory of Swanson, then I think he was very muddled up, as the reference would have been written a long time after the events concerned and he was going on memory.
Furthermore as he had to look at all the paperwork relating to the Whitechapel Murders I strongly suspect that he suffered from information overload and his mind would have become muddled up between events involving different people and different locations and at different years and times.
What we know of this identification makes no sense on any level, which supports my view that Swanson was muddled up.

[Fisherman]

There is a mistake on my behalf that needs clearing up. It ´s in post one, where I state that Stewart Evans would opt for 1891 as the time when the Seaside home identification was made.

I very clearly got that wrong, as has been brought to my attention. I therefore apologize to Mr Evans for having misrepresented him.

As for the thread premises otherwise, this mistake on my behalf does not have any impact on the overall topic, luckily. That, however, does not mean that we should not try and get all details right. Once again, therefore, my apologies to the participators of the thread but first and foremost to Stewart Evans!

Fisherman

[lynn cates]

reasoning

Hello Christer. Thanks for starting this thread.

"So either the identification was a complete failure if the witness was Lawende (goodbye Aaron Kosminski!) or the witness was NOT Lawende."

Try though I might, I can find no way around your reasoning here.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Full of holes

With you there!

Cheers,
C4

[Fisherman]

Hello Fisherman,

I disagree. Lavende was a successful businessman and naturalised englishman who spoke english. Not your average east-ender and likely to have had some knowledge of the law. Kosminski was not certified insane until 1891, but was admitted to the workhouse in July 1890 as "able-bodied but insane". He was released three days later "into the care" of his brother - which would not have been the case had he been sane. Later, presumably when his brother could no longer cope, he was certified insane in 1891. As far as I can see, the first step to having someone commited to a mental hospital was to have them admitted to the workhouse for assessment (will try to look into this).

Best wishes,
C4

On the whole, you may be correct of course - but I still think that Lawende may have harboured a fear that the suspect could have hung by means of his testimony.
One wonders, however, why the policemen behind the ID-process did not tell him how it all worked...! What fear Lawende should have been left with, should have been the fear of riots, nothing else. So that ID stuff is full of holes and anomalies as far as I can see.

All the best,
Fisherman

[curious4]

Witness

Hello Fisherman,

I disagree. Lavende was a successful businessman and naturalised englishman who spoke english. Not your average east-ender and likely to have had some knowledge of the law. Kosminski was not certified insane until 1891, but was admitted to the workhouse in July 1890 as "able-bodied but insane". He was released three days later "into the care" of his brother - which would not have been the case had he been sane. Later, presumably when his brother could no longer cope, he was certified insane in 1891. As far as I can see, the first step to having someone commited to a mental hospital was to have them admitted to the workhouse for assessment (will try to look into this).

Best wishes,
C4