Elizabeth Prater

[Sam Flynn]

"It might be an extension of the rear of Elizabeths room...her back corner, with the front facing onto Dorset. She might have windows facing both directions...due to the unusual shape of the room perhaps...like an "L"?"

Are you suggesting that the idea above I posted a few pages back has merit Sam? Not that I think Im the first to ever suggest it....

It's a reasonable proposition, Mike. That said, and to paraphrase Laplace, "Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothese"

[Stephen Thomas]

There follows a compilation of local and national (British) newspapers containing the various relevant references to Prater and her room, which may help.

Many thanks, Sam. That was very helpful indeed. It seems to me that Prater is stressing that she lived in very close proximity to Kelly as opposed to in the attic or ten doors down the road or whatever.

Here's a statement from the woman who murdered her sister in Room 19 in 1898 which goes some way to explaining the layout and why Prater felt the need to barricade her door.



And here's a (very!!!) rough and ready sketch of the most likely layout of that floor of the house

[Debra A]

(a)
and that the bridge over the archway (connecting the two premises and furnished with windows) belonged to 27 Dorset Street. An "L-shaped Room" would have the virtue of having windows that overlooked both Crossingham's lodging-house and the courtyard of Miller's Court. It would also have been simultaneously "almost above" Kelly's room and the "shed".

Hi Sam,
Personally, I think calling it a bridge connecting the two premises is misleading. The passageway between #26 and #27 Dorset Street existed so as to allow people access to the court. Once past ground floor height there is no need to continue the height of the passage, so during building #27 gains an extra couple of feet onto it's side wall surely? making the rooms in #27 slightly wider than the rooms in #26.
The internal walls of the main buildings aren't shown on the Goads plan, the only reason I think the wall dividing room 13 from the rest of the house is shown was to illustrate that that part of the building was 2 storeys high and the rest of the buiding was higher. I think we all agree that #26 was divided into several rooms along it's length, so I would guess the same applies to #27 as well. Therefore even though someone in the room above the passage at #27 would have a view into the court, it would have to be one hell of a long room to stretch through to the front too.

I don't know if this makes any sense....but I know what I mean, I'm just having trouble explaining it!

"It might be an extension of the rear of Elizabeths room...her back corner, with the front facing onto Dorset. She might have windows facing both directions...due to the unusual shape of the room perhaps...like an "L"?"

Are you suggesting that the idea above I posted a few pages back has merit Sam? Not that I think Im the first to ever suggest it....

It would be nice to be on the same side occassionally my friend.

All the best Gareth.

[Sam Flynn]

I think her hearing a voice that she thought originated from the courtyard will have to be the tipping point for me, because I cannot believe that she could possibly, even tentatively, identify the location of a voice she heard coming from a Dorset Street window as being from a source down a 23 foot stone archway beneath and behind her room.

(a) She may have picked up on what Lewis said and flowered up her own narrative; and (b) maybe the suggestion of an "L-shaped Room" needs revisiting.

In respect of the "L-shaped Room", recall that Prater did give her address (in her police statement) as 27 Dorset Street, and that the bridge over the archway (connecting the two premises and furnished with windows) belonged to 27 Dorset Street. An "L-shaped Room" would have the virtue of having windows that overlooked both Crossingham's lodging-house and the courtyard of Miller's Court. It would also have been simultaneously "almost above" Kelly's room and the "shed".

It would seem that Elizabeth herself, or the reports of her location arent specific enough, or consistent enough to exclude or include a courtyard facing window.

I think her hearing a voice that she thought originated from the courtyard will have to be the tipping point for me, because I cannot believe that she could possibly, even tentatively, identify the location of a voice she heard coming from a Dorset Street window as being from a source down a 23 foot stone archway beneath and behind her room.

So Ill step off this train, and wish you all well to your own destinations.

Cheers.

[sdreid]

Does anyone know Prater's age in 1888? For some reason, I picture her as about 50 but I could be way off.

[Sam Flynn]

What 'multiple' reports?

Hi Stephen/All,

There follows a compilation of local and national (British) newspapers containing the various relevant references to Prater and her room, which may help.

The Star, 10th November: Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, who has been deserted by her husband, knew Kelly well. She told a Star reporter, "She lived in No. 13 room, and mine is No. 20, which is almost over hers."

The Daily Telegraph, 10th November: Elizabeth Prater, the occupant of the first floor front room, was one of those who saw the body through the window.

Daily News, 10th November: Mrs. Prater, who occupies a room in 26 Dorset street, above that of the deceased stated that she had a chat with Kelly on Thursday morning.

The Echo, 12th November: Elizabeth Prater, wife of a boot machinist, deposed , "I live at No. 20 Room in Miller's-court. Deceased lived in the room below me.

The Star, 12th November: Elizabeth Prater, a young married woman living apart from her husband, in 20 Room, Miller's-court, said: My room is just over that of the deceased.

The Morning Advertiser, 13th November: Elizabeth Prater, wife of William Prater, said - I was deserted by my husband five years ago. I live at No. 20, in Miller's-court. (No info as to position of room.)

The Daily Telegraph, 13th November: Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, said: My husband, William Prater, was a boot machinist, and he has deserted me. I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below.

St James Gazette, 13th November: Elizabeth Prater, wife of a boot machinist living in No 20 Room, Miller's court, said that the deceased lived in the room below her.

The Times, 13th November: Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, living apart from her husband, said she occupied No. 20 room, Miller's-court, her room being just over that occupied by the deceased.

Daily News, 13th November: Elizabeth Prater said-My husband is a boot machinist, but he has deserted me this five years. I live in No. 20 Room, Miller's-court, and the deceased lived below me.

[Stephen Thomas]

Read the thread.

Answer the question, Mister. What 'multiple' reports?

I'm all ears.

[Dan Norder]

What are your 'multiple reports' that show that Prater lived directly above Kelly in Room#19?

Read the thread.

[Stephen Thomas]

As I see it, and please correct me if I am wrong, but the two sides seem to hinge upon the meaning of "above" in various reports and also the lights from the back of a lodging house.

On the first point, Sam mentions that one paper says Prater said she lived above the shed, while multiple reports have Prater as being above Mary Kelly's room.

Hello Dan

Prater says she lives in 'the room' above Kelly one time and 'just above' another time. The question here is whether she lived DIRECTLY above and the words 'the room' would seem to indicate that this was the case. But the reports that she lived 'ABOVE THE SHED' and she was 'the occupant of THE FIRST FLOOR FRONT ROOM and that there was a couple who lived in the room OVERHEAD #13 who had 'slept soundly without being awakened by scuffling in the ROOM BENEATH THEM' would seem to contradict this. Did not Prater live in Room 20 Millers Court which was at the FRONT OF #26 overlooking Dorset Street according to later information, as opposed to #19 which was DIRECTLY above #13. I may be mis-remembering but I seem to think that there was a quote from Prater to the effect that she heard a cry that came not from the STREET BELOW but from THE DIRECTION OF THE COURT. Why should she say that if she lived in it (ie the Court)? What are your 'multiple reports' that show that Prater lived directly above Kelly in Room#19? The Lodging House Light that went off at 3am would presumably be above the front entrance of Crossinghams. And Prater refers to NOISE at the back of a lodging house, not a LIGHT.

[Natalie Severn]

Well you might be happy in the galley when things get hot,but some people might need to be able to discuss things here without being told they are "less than"[ while you are" greater than"] or that they are producing "rags" while you are producing rare and cherished "special editions" or, worse still, when you are accusing them of "forgery" when they have not ever forged anything----and never would!
Thats not OK, Cap"n Jack.Its called " playing dirty " and its not nice.

[Ally]

So do it and donate the money to a woman's shelter or a children's charity. Or the SPCA. Make an actual statement with action.

[Cap'n Jack]

Natalie, I shot that parrot twenty years ago.
And Stewart, I have no ambitions or designs left in the publishing world.
As you know I have other fish to fry, and am very happy doing that.
My freshly caught Caribbean red-snapper fillet in a Reggae sauce is as close to heaven as anyone is going to get.
For over three years now certain elements in my personal and family life have been attempting to convince me to publish a revised copy of the 'Myth' as a limited, numbered and signed edition to be released on E-Bay a copy a month. I do have the funds to do that.
But I resist the urge to make money out of a subject I am basically in love with, however this is only because I have the privilege to be able to do so.
My point of view, and comments, are purely dictated by the fact that Sam or Michael, or you, or Tom, could be right in what you say and claim.
I'm happy in the galley when things get hot.

[Jake L]

IDo we know whether Prater is talking about seeing the source of the light itself from her window, or whether she means that she could see the things that the light cast onto and would know that the light was off when she couldn't see those things anymore? So, say, outside her window is the wall of another Miller's Court room on the other side of the water pump, and if she can see the wall the lodging house light next door is on, and if she doesn't it's off? Seems to me that would be a pretty good way of knowing whether it is before or after a certain time, assuming that that light was turned off at a predictable time of the night.

Good point - especially as the plan shows that there was a window at the end of the building opposite (i.e. the West side block of MC tenements) on the 1st floor, above the "dustbin area". These would reflect the light well.

Indirect light from the tall nr 30 seems to be the most feasible option (unless Prater pressed her cheek against the wall & intentionally looked at no 30.)

I think "Lodging House" did not refer to these rented rooms, but rather specifically to the "dosshouses". I have yet to come across any confusion in this regard as far as contemporary material goes.

/Jake