Charles Cross (Lechmere)

[MrBarnett]

The Eldon Street entrance was where the carts went in and out. It was really dangerous for pedestrians, so much so that someone took the company to court over it. The judge recommended that the company should look into building another entrance, but I could find out whether anything came of it. that was in the early 1880's I can't remember the exact date off hand.

I think we may have discussed this before, and if so and I’ve forgotten your response, apologies!

What do you think was the purpose of the LNWR Goods Station (Broad Street) entrance from Liverpool Street?

[MrBarnett]

unfortunatly i could not confirm any of the other possible enterances, there were a couple, mentioned.
all of those are a shorter distance , if memory recalls , so Eldon gives the longest distance. so safest to use.
all of the alternatives are looked at in appendix 1, table 3 of inside Bucks Row.

Thanks, Steve.

[MrBarnett]

I tried to check out the Primrose Street story when I first saw it and I believe there were stables nearer Norton Folgate, not connected to the railway, so it might have been there. I don't recall him mentioning they were railway connected, but was a long time ago.

There was an entrance in Applod Street and two on Worship street. There's couple more I found, but I don't know if they were in1888 or not.

Hi Dusty,

I think I saw the Primrose Street Story on a Broad Street Station site/thread. I can’t remember now if it was explicitly stated that the deceased was personally connected to the Station.

Gary

[drstrange169]

I knew I had one somewhere, here's a photo has the main Worship St entrance

[drstrange169]

If Lechmere went to Worship Street, going down Hanbury Street makes perfect sense. Montague would be well out of his way.

[drstrange169]

The Eldon Street entrance was where the carts went in and out. It was really dangerous for pedestrians, so much so that someone took the company to court over it. The judge recommended that the company should look into building another entrance, but I could find out whether anything came of it. that was in the early 1880's I can't remember the exact date off hand.

[drstrange169]

Interestingly, when i went on a trainspotters site, a guy said the meat yards for Broad Street were in the Worship Street depot, but he didn't know when that first started. With all your meat contemplations over the years have you heard anything about that?

[drstrange169]

I tried to check out the Primrose Street story when I first saw it and I believe there were stables nearer Norton Folgate, not connected to the railway, so it might have been there. I don't recall him mentioning they were railway connected, but was a long time ago.

There was an entrance in Applod Street and two on Worship street. There's couple more I found, but I don't know if they were in1888 or not.

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

Did you establish that Pickfords used the Eldon Street entrance as opposed to the one on Liverpool Street? I remember that being discussed at one time, but I can’t recall if a definitive (or most likely) answer was ever reached.

I once found an online reference to a worker connected to Broad Street Station who had died while at stables in Primrose Street. I tried to follow it up in the hope of discovering whether the man was an LNWR employee or Pickfords/Carter Patterson, but had no success.

Gary

unfortunatly i could not confirm any of the other possible enterances, there were a couple, mentioned.
all of those are a shorter distance , if memory recalls , so Eldon gives the longest distance. so safest to use.
all of the alternatives are looked at in appendix 1, table 3 of inside Bucks Row.

[MrBarnett]

i misread the original, sorry.
Yes so let me correct, shortest routes only this time

At 3.5mph it's between 19 and 22 minutes from Browns yard to Eldon street entrance at Pickfords

At 5mph it's between a shade under 14 - about 15 minutes

David Orsam said he managed it via Hanbury Street in 13 minutes 30 seconds

Sorry for that.

Steve

Hi Steve,

Did you establish that Pickfords used the Eldon Street entrance as opposed to the one on Liverpool Street? I remember that being discussed at one time, but I can’t recall if a definitive (or most likely) answer was ever reached.

I once found an online reference to a worker connected to Broad Street Station who had died while at stables in Primrose Street. I tried to follow it up in the hope of discovering whether the man was an LNWR employee or Pickfords/Carter Patterson, but had no success.

Gary

[Columbo]

The same data should be here on Casebook, in scene of crimes.

However, I believe Some of the figures were corrected by me when the book was published. Won't be a great deal of difference I suspect.

Steve

Excellent work.

[drstrange169]

Strangely, there is no record of any possessions being found about her person.

[Columbo]

When I asked Christer about this conundrum, I was told that this was a crime of opportunity (or, as you say, a 'spur of the moment murder') and Polly Nichols was already standing in Buck's Row, having just serviced a client, and this is why the crime occurred when it did, and where it did. (Most of us imagine the Ripper being led into a backstreet or back court by his victims, as per 'normal' street prostitution. The obvious choice in Polly's case would have been her picking up a client in the Whitechapel Road).

I thought Holmgen's theory on this point was nothing short of astonishing, considering this other man would obviously be a better suspect than a random carman who had a reason for passing through that street at that time. And considering the vagaries of blood 'oozing,' then this client is the man we should be looking for.

Which is precisely what the police concluded 130 odd years ago.

I don't recall if they found any money on Nichols?

[Abby Normal]

Thanks, Steve. But, if I understand you, this is the estimated time for Lechmere's entire commute from Doveton Street to Pickford's, no?

What Sherlock actually asked is what time it would have taken Lechmere to have continued his journey to work "from the murder site."

So wouldn't it have been less? Don't we have to knock off around 5-8 minutes? (7 minutes seems about right to me).

I think Herlock's question is highly relevant.

If we are going to accept the possibility that Lechmere may have lied, then his journey time from Doveton Street is largely irrelevant. As Christer likes to tell us, he could have left at 3 a.m or even earlier and simply been lying to the inquest.

But what Lechmere couldn't have lied about is the time he was independently seen by Paul standing in the middle of Buck's Row.

If this occurred at a time when Lechmere could have still reached Pickford's by 4 a.m., (and Paul's estimate the time at around 3:45) then Lechmere's presence in the street is not only entirely natural, but the time at which he was seen standing there was also entirely natural---he was seen at around the same time he would have been there had he been innocently walking to work.

not if he left home.at 3:20 or 3:30. or earlier.

[Elamarna]

Roughly twenty-minutes, though if he knew he was running late he could always adjust his pace accordingly.

If you want to read all the nuts & bolts, check out Steve Blomer's posts here:

Bucks Row Project - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

The same data should be here on Casebook, in scene of crimes.

However, I believe Some of the figures were corrected by me when the book was published. Won't be a great deal of difference I suspect.

Steve