Lizzie Prater - intended victim?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

All my Ripper books are still packed away as a result of a house move, but if I remember correctly, Bob's idea wasn't that the murderer would reach in through the window, but simply open the door.

Thankyou Robert.
I only remember Bob being very particular, dimension wise, about a mock-up he made of the window and the location of the lock in the door with respect to the broken glass. He needed to demonstrate the reach was possible, or not.

It was the kind of door that will close if it's pushed to, but will otherwise be on the latch - hope I've got that right. I think Bob said something about a lock system dating from the 18th century.

Yes, but its because Kelly was home, presumably already retired by this time?, that the lock should have been 'on'.
The tradition, if I recall was, that tenants only locked the door when they were home, but when they were out they left it on the latch.

I think Bob's idea was that Hutchinson would have gone round to see her, rather than sneaking in.

Lewis did claim to see a man at Kelly's door, and he had claimed to walk up the court to stand at her door..
"...I went up the court and stayed there a couple of minutes, but did not see any light in the house or hear any noise."

Seems an awfully honest admission for a murderer to make.
Even if he saw Lewis watching him, its a hell of a dubious defense to adopt

But imagine someone like "David Cohen," whose mind had clearly gone by the end of 1888. If he wanted to go through a door, he'd have gone through, without any cautious window-peering.

Ah, David Cohen?, but likely have woken the neighbourhood in the process...

Regards, Jon S.

[Robert]

Hi Jon

All my Ripper books are still packed away as a result of a house move, but if I remember correctly, Bob's idea wasn't that the murderer would reach in through the window, but simply open the door. It was the kind of door that will close if it's pushed to, but will otherwise be on the latch - hope I've got that right. I think Bob said something about a lock system dating from the 18th century.

I think Bob's idea was that Hutchinson would have gone round to see her, rather than sneaking in. But imagine someone like "David Cohen," whose mind had clearly gone by the end of 1888. If he wanted to go through a door, he'd have gone through, without any cautious window-peering.

[Wickerman]

c. 3.55 am. Lizzie (and one other witness in the court) hear a cry of 'murder' from Mary Kelly's room below Lizzie's.

Good that you worded it that way, I mean the direction from whence the cry came.
Nowhere does Prater claim the cry came from the Court.

What Prater does say is that, she pays no attention to screams because she frequently hears them from the court - that, is not saying the "oh, murder" came from the court.
Prater also says, "it came from close by", whether she meant within the house or not we do not know.

Note - I'm going by the testimony of Sarah Lewis who heard the Christchurch clock striking 4 very shortly after the alarming cry.

Ok, but lets not forget that Prater did correct herself by adding..
"...I noticed the lodging-house light was out, so it was after 4 probably..."

So, Lewis said before 4:00am and Prater thought it after 4:00am, given the inexact ways they determined the time without a timepiece of their own we can make allowances for an approximation either way.

Was it Lizzie Prater the killer was after?

Actually, I wondered if it was Sarah Lewis he was originally after, assuming the man Bowyer saw in the court on Wednesday night was the same man who Lewis complained about in Bethnal Green Rd.
Or, maybe it wasn't...

Did he mount the stairs to her room and find himself unable to enter because of the baricade? Did the minimal noise he made reach sensitive feline ears but not weaker human ones?

That might get the cats attention...

Was the killer meanwhile returning downstairs and finding MJK the nearest viable alternative to vent his thwarted rage upon?

But he would have to somehow make another entry into a room which could have been empty, or occupied by six 250 lb dockers who wouldn't appreciate him disturbing them..


Regards, Jon S.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Remember Sutcliffe did not always use the same approach, or the same weapons, or lay the body the same way, and sometimes hiding the body, on other occasions leaving it exposed.

Regards, Jon S.

M.O.s do evolve depending upon need.

What doesn't tend to change is the reason for the murder.

It would be almost unthinkable that the person who killed Mary in order to spend time carving her up in such a manner, had not carved someone up prior to Mary's murder.

[Wickerman]

Hi Robert.

Ah yes, of course. Two of my books that seem to have vanished into thin air were Bruce Paley's and Bob Hinton's, I have not seen them in years.

I do think Bob had the lock correct, he posted a number of pics of it years ago, it seems to fit the bill, but having a burglar reach through and unlock the catch is a little too contrived for me.
This is someone who could not wait to kill her out on the street but risked a rusty hinge on a creaking door waking her up, and then her screaming blue murder to boot.

.....why on earth would he kill her in such a ridiculous manner..

Dare I ask, ....do you expect rational thinking from an irrational mind?

The method we think we see can only suggest a change in M.O., Whether that was because the killer consciously approached her differently, or the killer was not the Ripper, can only be guessed.

Remember Sutcliffe did not always use the same approach, or the same weapons, or lay the body the same way, and sometimes hiding the body, on other occasions leaving it exposed.

Regards, Jon S.

[Robert]

Hi Jon

Bob Hinton considered it. He has Mr A as really existing, and not just a downright lie by Hutchinson, but he has Mr A's description as heavily fabricated by Hutchinson. Then he has Hutchinson entering Kelly's room after Mr A's departure, and killing Kelly (it's an obsessive stalker theory). I'm not saying that the killer was Hutchinson, just that if Bob is right about the key, anyone could have let himself into that room and killed Kelly.

The way I see it, if the Ripper was a punter whom Mary had taken home, why on earth would he kill her in such a ridiculous manner (I'll just let you get undressed and lie down, and then I'll cut your throat on the opposite side from the one that I'm used to, and in such a way that blood spurts up the partition in several splashes").

[Wickerman]

Yes Jon. Can't be sure of course but that's what I'd bet on.

Interesting, I wasn't aware anyone had considered that possibility (except those who use Maxwell's argument, I'm not thinking that late).

My only clue to a post-Astrachan murder is Mrs Kennedy's story about seeing Kelly outside the Britannia at about 3:00 am.
As we have nothing to the contrary (Hutch was just leaving by then), it raises an interesting alternate scenario.

Regards, Jon S.

[Robert]

Yes Jon. Can't be sure of course but that's what I'd bet on.

[Wickerman]

Yes Suzi, I reckon she just didn't bother with the door, probably Mr A went out and she wasn't bothered to get up to fasten it. I don't suppose she was too cold either, if she was drunk-ish. Probably didn't feel the cold or anything else.

Hi Robert.
You think she was murdered ....after Astrachan left?

[Suzi]

Exactly!!!!!!!! cwtchd up throwing something over her- don't get me going on the kettle yes or no yet and ZONK....that was it- until whatever time she had her visit........another theory there......

[Robert]

Yes Suzi, I reckon she just didn't bother with the door, probably Mr A went out and she wasn't bothered to get up to fasten it. I don't suppose she was too cold either, if she was drunk-ish. Probably didn't feel the cold or anything else.

[Suzi]

Interesting..........these doors on the right in the alley- apres 'shed' are interesting No 1 upstairs Mrs P ( and Dids) - No2 Mary.

If Mrs P had followed her usual bed time routine of barricading herself and Dids (who probably came and went through the window!) in - there could be a problem here- As to Dids waking her- he probably just woke up and en route to window happened to wake Mrs P.

Now Mary had probably just staggered in- chucked her clothes off in some sort of random order maybe and collapsed- with or without chemise- onto the bed- possibly the last thing on her mind was to barricade herself in- being aware that if push came to shove a handy hand past the coat over the 'air conditioned' window could open the door from the outside anyway!... Knowing that (and possibly she wasn't alone in this-was more than likely common knowledge!!).... she probably just slept....until she was allegedly heard to cry (or someone did!) 'Oh Murder!'...still a rather odd phrase I feel!

The rest as we know is history- shame about the Lord Mayor's Show though.

[Robert]

Hi Dave and Richard

You see how tricky these doors can be? I've a feeling McCarthy was lucky to escape evisceration.

The shed idea would apply to a disorganized kind of murderer who had been there before, was surprised to find it locked, and sought a back way in. Likewise the panic on finding Mary inside. Those who believe in an organized killer might see things differently. I think Jack was disorganized, or at the very least was "losing it" by November.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Dave,
Sorry schoolboy error....
On the right ..on the right, we don't want to complicate things , now do we.
Regards Richard.

[Cogidubnus]

One hand from the other

Hi,
This theory is not without merit, their were two doors on the left up the passage, one led to Upstairs, the other Kelly's room.
It is conceivable that ''so tell him I have gone up'' [ words spoken by Prater to McCarthy at 1.30 am] would suggest that she had arranged to meet someone at the court, from a meeting that evening, as apparently her and Mary Kelly were both out that evening to try ''their luck''.
If this was the case, then the layout of millers court would not have been known by this person, and if he happened to be the Killer, and he informed her he would meet her at the passage entrance, saying ''If I was a bit late where do you live?' the reply being ''First door on the left''
We could then introduce the following scenario...
If the killer was not intending to meet her at 1.00-130, and just wanted to have access to her room, he may have said ''If I am late don't lock me out''.
But Praters routine of blocking her door with furniture was applied, so when the killer entered the first door , and came upon Praters room, finding it locked
he assumed he had the wrong location, and realized the first door, may have been the first door pass the passage...he tried his luck there.
If , and its a big ''IF'', room 13 was still on the latch, he could have walked in , and although realizing he had the wrong person...the rest is history[ as Robert interpreted me].
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard

On your 3D Millers Court, please, please, please don't do first door on the left!

Every good wish

Dave