Lizzie Prater - intended victim?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael

But why couldn't she have been on her back? Bit awkward, cutting the right side of her throat when she's lying on it.

A bit more awkward, sure, but if thats where she was lying, by her position it sounds like waiting for someone to get into the 2/3 of the bed she left free, then it allowed the killer a sneak attack from behind. Awkward, but far less struggle and noise. Which the evidence shows is lacking at this scene.

Whomever killed her had to know noise was a huge factor here.

Cheers Robert

[Robert]

Hi Jon

Didn't Bowyer say that he'd seen a man who had strange eyes in the Court a day or two before?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Michael

Interesting, but didn't Prater say that she spent a little time in the shop talking to McCarthy, and would it not, therefore, be possible for MJK to exit the passiageway unseen whilst both Prater and McCarthy were distracted? Especially if she turned left....

Just a thought

All the best

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

Mrs McCarthy also had a comment to make.
Someone came into her shop that night, who was not a tenant, and mentioned seeing a funny looking man go up the court/passage.

Mrs McCarthy herself gives a slight clue as to a person who was seen in the court early on Friday morning, as one of her customers remarked to her – before the murder was known - “I saw such a funny man up the court this morning”. Mrs McCarthy says she has been so worried by the shocking affair that she cannot now remember the customer who thus spoke to her.

The customer could have been anybody, but equally it could have been Sarah Lewis. Lewis was not a tenant so McCarthy had no reason to remember her, so did Lewis step into McCarthy's shop before she arrived at the Keyler's?

Regards, Jon S.

If so, then both McCarthy and Lewis must have forgotten to mention it was her, not Prater.

If you allow Hutchinson to be what he is historically, someone whom the police determined wasnt truthful, you have fewer problems with any witness who saw Mary out of her room after 11:45pm Thursday.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jon

Sarah Lewis deposed: I live at 24, Great Pearl-street, and am a laundress. I know Mrs. Keyler, in Miller's-court, and went to her house at 2, Miller's-court, at 2.30a.m. on Friday. It is the first house. I noticed the time by the Spitalfields' Church clock. When I went into the court, opposite the lodging-house I saw a man with a wideawake. There was no one talking to him. He was a stout-looking man, and not very tall. The hat was black. I did not take any notice of his clothes. The man was looking up the court; he seemed to be waiting or looking for some one. Further on there was a man and woman - the later being in drink. There was nobody in the court. I dozed in a chair at Mrs. Keyler's, and woke at about half- past three. I heard the clock strike.

Now, she arrived at the Court around 2.30. Hutchinson says he saw MJK and Mr A around 2, or just after. That's OK as far as it goes, but for Lewis to have seen MJK and Mr A, would mean that they still hadn't got inside Mary's room. This would mean that they'd been hanging around talking for close on half an hour. I had always taken "further on" to mean "further down Dorset St." Also she doesn't mention looking out of a window. She says she just dozed and awoke at 3.30.

If she saw the man and woman actually in the court, wouldn't she have been pressed to describe them? After all, she described the man who was waiting (the "Hutchinson" man).

Robert,

As you know Marys room was dark and silent at 1:30, and no-one sees her leave the room or courtyard. So, how is it that she is out of her room and seen loitering with someone at 2:30?

Prater was inside the archway after 1:20 and Mary didnt pass her on the way out, and she had been out on the street from 1 until approx 1:20. Mary would have had to walk past her to leave her room as it was found by Prater when she ascended the staircase. Dark and quiet.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

Thankyou Robert.

Yes, a number of questions do arise which throw a query on Macdonalds Inquest rather than the credibility of his witnesses. The other problem of course is that none of the records of the proceedings are complete, which includes the official document.
A number of replies by Lewis in the Official record are abbreviated. We obtain more lengthy responses in the press, plus thankfully, the Coroners questions which prompted the replies.

Agreed, Hutchinson does mention, but only in his press interview, that he passed the Whitechapel Church (Matfelon?) between 1:50-1:55 am.
From there its a minute or two around the corner and up Commercial St.

Sequence of events matters more than any estimated times.
What I mean by that is, if Hutchinson watched Kelly & 'A' just after 2:00am, but Lewis saw a man watching a couple at 2:30 am, then we will never reconcile the sequence because their estimated times are too far apart.

The correct times were not known because.....
- We don't know where Lewis was when she heard the clock (passing the church or, at the Keylers).
- We don't know if the Spital clock was correct.
- We don't know what time Hutch met Kelly & 'A'.
- We don't know if the Whitechapel Church clock was in syc. with the Spital clock.

Therefore, regardless of the estimated times, Hutchinson watched Kelly & 'A' walk up the court/passage sometime after two o'clock.
Sarah Lewis observed a man watching a couple pass up the passage around half past two.
Hutchinson also admits to walking up the passage and standing outside Kelly's door.
Lewis mentions seeing a man stand outside Kelly's door.

Too much attention is payed to aligning up the times when everyone concerned knows the times are estimates to begin with.
However, the sequences are not estimates, they are one-to-one contacts between people who were there.

Just as a side note.
Mrs McCarthy also had a comment to make.
Someone came into her shop that night, who was not a tenant, and mentioned seeing a funny looking man go up the court/passage.

Mrs McCarthy herself gives a slight clue as to a person who was seen in the court early on Friday morning, as one of her customers remarked to her – before the murder was known - “I saw such a funny man up the court this morning”. Mrs McCarthy says she has been so worried by the shocking affair that she cannot now remember the customer who thus spoke to her.

The customer could have been anybody, but equally it could have been Sarah Lewis. Lewis was not a tenant so McCarthy had no reason to remember her, so did Lewis step into McCarthy's shop before she arrived at the Keyler's?
Was this customer describing Hutchinson standing up the court (from the shop), but what would be "funny" about Mr. Wideawake?
Or, was it this well-dressed (funny-looking) Astrachan man with Kelly?

Regards, Jon S.

[Robert]

Hi Michael

But why couldn't she have been on her back? Bit awkward, cutting the right side of her throat when she's lying on it.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael, why must she be facing the wall?

Hi Robert,

The first medical man to examine her while still in the room, Phillips, said;

"The large quantity of blood under the bedstead, the saturated condition of the palliasse, pillow, and sheet at the top corner of the bedstead nearest to the partition leads me to the conclusion that the severance of the right carotid artery, which was the immediate cause of death, was inflicted while the deceased was lying at the right side of the bedstead and her head and neck in the top right-hand corner."

If she was lying with her back to her killer, on the right 1/3 of the bed, the sheet somewhat covering her face, that evidence coupled with the splash or arterial spray on the wall indicates she was most likely on her side, facing the wall. The killer attacked from her rear and the knife was placed at the furthest point from the killer by reach before being drawn across, his left hand pulling the knife back toward him.

Generally speaking, throats arent cut using a stroke that is pushing away from the knife user.

Best regards Robert

[Robert]

Hi Jon

I don't know what to make of Lewis's statements. Here is her inquest testimony from the Casebook offcial documents section (Daily Telegraph) :



Sarah Lewis deposed: I live at 24, Great Pearl-street, and am a laundress. I know Mrs. Keyler, in Miller's-court, and went to her house at 2, Miller's-court, at 2.30a.m. on Friday. It is the first house. I noticed the time by the Spitalfields' Church clock. When I went into the court, opposite the lodging-house I saw a man with a wideawake. There was no one talking to him. He was a stout-looking man, and not very tall. The hat was black. I did not take any notice of his clothes. The man was looking up the court; he seemed to be waiting or looking for some one. Further on there was a man and woman - the later being in drink. There was nobody in the court. I dozed in a chair at Mrs. Keyler's, and woke at about half- past three. I heard the clock strike.

Now, she arrived at the Court around 2.30. Hutchinson says he saw MJK and Mr A around 2, or just after. That's OK as far as it goes, but for Lewis to have seen MJK and Mr A, would mean that they still hadn't got inside Mary's room. This would mean that they'd been hanging around talking for close on half an hour. I had always taken "further on" to mean "further down Dorset St." Also she doesn't mention looking out of a window. She says she just dozed and awoke at 3.30.

If she saw the man and woman actually in the court, wouldn't she have been pressed to describe them? After all, she described the man who was waiting (the "Hutchinson" man).

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

I was going by a sketch (was it Reynold's News?). It might not be accurate of course.

Well, that's very odd about Lewis. We can't suppose that she saw the same man in two different positions.

Hi Robert.

Sarah did walk passed Hutchinson who was standing in the street on the opposite side of the road at the time.
We know she was visiting her friends at No.2, which was upstairs. I can only assume it was while she was in the room upstairs that she later looked down into the yard and saw the same man standing at Kelly's door.

Sadly Hutchinson does not make it clear whether he went up the court immediately behind the couple, before his 30 minute vigil in Dorset St. or, whether his vigil came first, then just prior to 3:00 am he walked up the passage to look/listen at her door.
It could be either.

If it was indeed outside Kelly's door then that affects Bob's case. Bob said that the reason Hutchinson came forward on 12th was that he heard of Lewis's inquest testimony and knew he'd been spotted, so he launched a pre-emptive strike. If he was spotted outside Kelly's door, then presumably he'd have known already that he'd been seen.

Well, we can only go by what we read and as both sources agree, then there's no reason to dismiss one or the other, their stories are mutually supportive with respect to this small detail.

Now Bob may be right that Hutchinson elaborated the way Astrachan looked, but the man existed. Lewis seems to acknowledge that a couple did pass up the court while this man (Hutchinson) with the wideawake hat stood watching. This couple must have been MJK with Astrachan.

Lewis said:
"...He was looking up the court as if he was waiting for some one. I also saw a man and a woman who had no hat on and were the worse for drink pass up the court."
Daily News, 13 Nov. 1888.

Sarah Lewis did not know Mary, and she did not see where this couple went, she could only say that there was no-one in the court. I would presume she said that to explain that she did not see any people making illicit manouvers in the dark.
This couple obviously went indoors, but Lewis could not say into which tenement.

Regards, Jon S.

[Robert]

Michael, why must she be facing the wall?

[Michael W Richards]

This is not a new idea. But it hasn't been covered in depth and it intrigues me very much.

c. 1.30 am. Lizzie Prater retires to her room after an unsuccessful wait for her toy boy. She baricades her door with some furniture. She then falls down into a drink-induced sleep at once. Diddles curls up on her mattress.

c. 3.45 am. Lizzie is woken by Diddles who walks on her neck.

c. 3.55 am. Lizzie (and one other witness in the court) hear a cry of 'murder' from Mary Kelly's room below Lizzie's. Note - I'm going by the testimony of Sarah Lewis who heard the Christchurch clock striking 4 very shortly after the alarming cry.

Two things are very striking to me:
1. Lizzie would have been a more typical Ripper victim than MJK because of her more matronly age.
2. Pussycats do not wake in the night unless some noise or someone has disturbed them.

Was it Lizzie Prater the killer was after? Did he mount the stairs to her room and find himself unable to enter because of the baricade? Did the minimal noise he made reach sensitive feline ears but not weaker human ones? Was the killer meanwhile returning downstairs and finding MJK the nearest viable alternative to vent his thwarted rage upon?

Hi Nell,

Just a few comments, Elizabeth stated she heard the sound around 3:45, or between 3:30 and 4:00am, so best to use her words instead of Ms Lewis's for this thread.

She was woken by Diddles and heard the cry immediately, so Diddles did hear something that caused him to stir first...the sound of footsteps in the court, someone knocking on a window or door, some voices before Prater wakes perhaps. The person belonging to that cry didnt just appear there.

If we are assuming Jack for the murderer, (Im not sure that is your belief), then entering a house and then moving further into a court with only a 20 foot tunnel of stone to use for an escape sounds particularly uncharacteristic. Polly, on the street, Annie in a backyard, (granted with a similar issue of egress to a public street), Liz...her feet were almost touching the gate, and Catharine, in a public square with 3 routes to use for escape. To suggest Jack would try entering buildings and private rooms to me is looking way to hard for a Ripper.

And I do wish people would quit suggesting that "oh-murder" signaled the commencement of her attack, in short...IT DIDNT. NO sounds were heard following that cry by 2 women who could hear noice from the court and one from inside the house, and both women were awake listening intently for further sounds to see if "oh-murder" signified what it "literally" may be suggesting.

Its possible the cry was from Mary, it is not possible at all that she was in her bed lying on her side facing the wall when she may have made that cry.....which IS where the attack began.

Cheers

[Robert]

Hi Jon

I was going by a sketch (was it Reynold's News?). It might not be accurate of course.

Well, that's very odd about Lewis. We can't suppose that she saw the same man in two different positions. If it was indeed outside Kelly's door then that affects Bob's case. Bob said that the reason Hutchinson came forward on 12th was that he heard of Lewis's inquest testimony and knew he'd been spotted, so he launched a pre-emptive strike. If he was spotted outside Kelly's door, then presumably he'd have known already that he'd been seen.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

Maybe Mary assumed Mr A had closed the door properly, or maybe she couldn't be bothered to get out of bed to close it. I imagine under normal circs she'd have kept her boots by her bed, so she could slip into them and avoid treading on the filthy floor. But on this occasion she'd felt compelled to put her boots to dry by the fire. I don't suppose she wanted to tread on the floor if she could avoid it.

Where are her boots mentioned?

I didn't know Lewis saw Hutch outside Kelly's door. I thought she saw him standing outside the lodging house.

"In the doorway of the deceased's house I saw a man in a wideawake hat standing. He was not tall, but a stout-looking man. He was looking up the court as if he was waiting for some one."
Daily News, 13 Nov. 1888.

I originally took it as a typo for lodging-house door, meaning the one across the street. But, as Hutchinson claimed to do precisely that, stand at her door, there's no grounds for disputing the meaning.

Regards, Jon S.

[Robert]

Hi Jon

Maybe Mary assumed Mr A had closed the door properly, or maybe she couldn't be bothered to get out of bed to close it. I imagine under normal circs she'd have kept her boots by her bed, so she could slip into them and avoid treading on the filthy floor. But on this occasion she'd felt compelled to put her boots to dry by the fire. I don't suppose she wanted to tread on the floor if she could avoid it.

I didn't know Lewis saw Hutch outside Kelly's door. I thought she saw him standing outside the lodging house.