Lizzie Prater - intended victim?

[Wickerman]

Hi, Jon,
interesting.

But what about the defensive wounds on her hands? When would that have happened?

curious

Hi Curious.

I'm just as fascinated as anyone might be that the cut on the thumb was a defensive wound but, if she had the where withall to grab his knife then why did she not holler sufficiently loud enough to waken the dead?

Defensive actions suggest a time factor, if she had time to defend herself she also had time to yell, scream and raise hell.

Somehow, "oh murder" doesn't quite cut it for a defensive scream.

Or did the killer just cut her thumb by accident?, there appears to be overcuts across her forearm, maybe the thumb cut is just another example?

Regards, Jon S.

[curious]

Ok, the image I had (for what its worth) was that she let him in or brought him in with her.
Kelly undresses while the man goes to the washbasin. While Kelly is sat on the bed fixing her chemise with her back to him he flips a cord over her head and pulls tight, garotting her. When she collapsed backwards onto the pillow he pulls a knife and sliced her throat.


Regards, Jon S.

Hi, Jon,
interesting.

But what about the defensive wounds on her hands? When would that have happened?

curious

[Wickerman]

An interesting idea Wickerman and certainly possible. This seems however like it would give less leverage and if MJK was awakened, she might be able to get up off the bed and put up a fight or even get out of the room. I would think the logistics of body to body contact would provide greater chance of a quick kill and no chance of escape. Just thinking aloud here, it seems contrived and unnecessary for him to attack over the headboard a la Dracula…


Greg

Ok, the image I had (for what its worth) was that she let him in or brought him in with her.
Kelly undresses while the man goes to the washbasin. While Kelly is sat on the bed fixing her chemise with her back to him he flips a cord over her head and pulls tight, garotting her. When she collapsed backwards onto the pillow he pulls a knife and sliced her throat.

Advantages being, he is behind her when the attack commenced so no chance of her hitting, scratching or kicking him. Also, the image of a killer crouched over her on the bed is somewhat ungainly, and still possible to get blood on himself when he sliced her throat, not so if he is standing behind the headboard - less likely, and he would be in more of a controlled stance.

Just tossing possibilities around...

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Check the fimbriation of your ordinaries

Hi Colin

I have to say I'm veering towards Michael here, though I do have some reservations.

By the way I love your new signature...but do trust the jackstaff's to the left, otherwise you're signifying distress!

All the best

Dave

[Bridewell]

He must also have taken care not to brush against the blood splashes on the partition, as the police and doctors would presumably have noticed if these had been smeared out.

That would only be an issue if the bed was moved after the throat was cut, but I introduced the 'bed moved' notion simply as a discussion point.

[GregBaron]

Over the top...

Hi Greg.

Have you noticed the headboard in the photo, that it looks low enough that a man could reach over it?
The bed is up against the side partition certainly, but the headboard is some distance away from the passage wall. Some have theorized that the washstand stood behind the headboard in the corner.
Regardless, there appears to be sufficient space that a man could, at the very least, have cut her throat from this position making it unnecessary for him to climb on top of her to do that.

Once this is done, he steps around to the side of the bed and drags her body towards him to start the mutilations.
Just another way of looking at it..

Regards, Jon S.

An interesting idea Wickerman and certainly possible. This seems however like it would give less leverage and if MJK was awakened, she might be able to get up off the bed and put up a fight or even get out of the room. I would think the logistics of body to body contact would provide greater chance of a quick kill and no chance of escape. Just thinking aloud here, it seems contrived and unnecessary for him to attack over the headboard a la Dracula…


Greg

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

Im always prepared to do so Robert, although I like to have my point of view accepted I still respect the view of others like yourself.

Cheers Mate

[Wickerman]

I agree Michael. If you think about pulling the sheet over the face and cutting with the right hand that would be awkward. You would essentially be cutting under your left arm, risking injury to the left hand and obscuring vision.

Hi Greg.

Have you noticed the headboard in the photo, that it looks low enough that a man could reach over it?
The bed is up against the side partition certainly, but the headboard is some distance away from the passage wall. Some have theorized that the washstand stood behind the headboard in the corner.
Regardless, there appears to be sufficient space that a man could, at the very least, have cut her throat from this position making it unnecessary for him to climb on top of her to do that.

Once this is done, he steps around to the side of the bed and drags her body towards him to start the mutilations.
Just another way of looking at it..

Regards, Jon S.

[Steadmund Brand]

Two things are very striking to me:
1. Lizzie would have been a more typical Ripper victim than MJK because of her more matronly age.
2. Pussycats do not wake in the night unless some noise or someone has disturbed them.

My cat wakes up all the time in the middle of the night, he sleeps all day while I am at work, and often he wakes me at night just for attention...

[Robert]

Hi Michael

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

[Michael W Richards]

I agree Michael. If you think about pulling the sheet over the face and cutting with the right hand that would be awkward. You would essentially be cutting under your left arm, risking injury to the left hand and obscuring vision.

And once dead, I envisioned the killer straddling MJK from below while he cut up the body. As you said, in this position he would have to sit the knife down to lift innards to the table. At least hold the knife while scooping with both hands, possible, but again awkward and more likely to get his body filled with grime. For a lefty the scene would seem easier logistically. I also think it would be difficult to denude the right thigh with the right hand from this position below the body. It would be interesting to know if the thigh was denuded top to bottom or vice versa…

I know there are other options but I don’t think the evidence supports a moving of bed or body. I am interested to know who it was in 1888 who thought the perp a left hander…


Greg

Hi Greg,

My interest in this particular aspect is based upon a belief that the killer, realizing he was walking on squeaky hardwood flooring and dealing with a bed that likely made some noise when moved, would have worked in a position that would allow him the least complicated movements while remaining in place.

I think its interesting to note here that its possible the reason we see the materials placed where we do is because he didnt move much. Why no materials on the larger table under the windows? Why none on the floor? Why none on a chair? Because of his location the range of movement offered him,.... (from a position on the left of the bed, back to the window, night table slightly behind him to his right),...places to put everything without moving substantially. He had the night table and the bed, under and around Mary,.. and it was enough room.

Cheers Greg

[Michael W Richards]

Yes Michael, the obvious thing to do, when you are worried that someone knows your secret, is to get her drunk in public.

Hi Robert,

Surely you dont dispute that plying someone with alcohol is a tried and true method of discovery since man began keeping secrets?

In the pub, they could have her somewhat under control and intimidated enough to keep her voice down, but later, when she became so drunk that she was found out on the street, maybe imitating a fire engine, they knew of her weakness and the possibility of even accidental disclosures.

My premise here is that she did have some real information, something she felt connected someone to the earlier murders. And that she initially intended to sell that info to the police for a reward. Maybe she decided the guilty parties might pay more for her silence, .....showing her naivete when dealing with dangerous people.

Getting people drunk to get them to reveal things they wouldnt normally isnt a radical idea Robert,.. whether its done in a closed room or a busy pub.

All the best

[GregBaron]

The Wrong Man...

Not that I ever expect to break new ground here Greg, , but I dont recall seeing anyone or any lit that argues the preferred hand of Marys killer. And I do recall some contemporary suggestion that he was.

Im really glad someone else finds this to be a pivotal point. I firmly believe that the odds are against any Canonical falling prey to someone ambidextrous, so if there is a way to be fairly certain we know the preference of the man whose hands did the work in room 13, there is a very good reason for moving suspicion of her killer from the man that killed the first 2 women. He was right handed. The throat cuts commencement and end points confirm that I believe.

Cheers Greg.

I agree Michael. If you think about pulling the sheet over the face and cutting with the right hand that would be awkward. You would essentially be cutting under your left arm, risking injury to the left hand and obscuring vision.

And once dead, I envisioned the killer straddling MJK from below while he cut up the body. As you said, in this position he would have to sit the knife down to lift innards to the table. At least hold the knife while scooping with both hands, possible, but again awkward and more likely to get his body filled with grime. For a lefty the scene would seem easier logistically. I also think it would be difficult to denude the right thigh with the right hand from this position below the body. It would be interesting to know if the thigh was denuded top to bottom or vice versa…

I know there are other options but I don’t think the evidence supports a moving of bed or body. I am interested to know who it was in 1888 who thought the perp a left hander…


Greg

[Michael W Richards]

This could be true Bridewell but it seems he had a lot of work to do without moving bodies and beds in addition. It seems unlikely to me he would be moving furniture around, precision wasn't exactly his forte. You can slice and dice from any number of positions. If he did move the bed for easier carving I would think blood smears and other things might have indicated as much. Would they have noticed such things in 1888? I don't know.

What I like about Michael' s (and whomever else's) idea is that if we can even determine with some degree of probability that the killer was left handed then we know we have a new perp and the whole case changes into a Lynn Cates spy thriller. I know this is unlikely (discovering his handedness) but I'm wondering if any evidence at the scene tends to suggest a left handed assailant. I find this a very intriguing avenue of inquiry although I know resolution is unlikely. My intuition is that a Sherlock Holmes on the scene may have been able to deduce such a scenario. I know I'm dreaming but I think this an interesting point to debate, like everything else, I expect no consensus.


Greg

Not that I ever expect to break new ground here Greg, , but I dont recall seeing anyone or any lit that argues the preferred hand of Marys killer. And I do recall some contemporary suggestion that he was.

Im really glad someone else finds this to be a pivotal point. I firmly believe that the odds are against any Canonical falling prey to someone ambidextrous, so if there is a way to be fairly certain we know the preference of the man whose hands did the work in room 13, there is a very good reason for moving suspicion of her killer from the man that killed the first 2 women. He was right handed. The throat cuts commencement and end points confirm that I believe.

Cheers Greg.

[Robert]

Yes Michael, the obvious thing to do, when you are worried that someone knows your secret, is to get her drunk in public.