Chapman’s death.

[Trevor Marriott]

Nothing is certain of course but imo Cadosch appears to be a creditable witness.

But how can you judge him either way? if you have a theory on who is right and who is wrong then you will either want to believe him or not.

The whole inquest was a shambles, as were most of them, so many ambiguites arose which were never clarified, but seemed to be accepted without question, and it hasnt helped researchers because of the different versions of the witness testimony in the newspapers.

Can anything be safely relied upon ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fisherman]

If Long was an attention-seeker, she didn't exactly have an attention-grabbing story to tell.

Oh, yes, Gareth - a woman, identified as a Ripper victim, an enigmatic faceless foreigner, and a conversation that gave away that the two were Chapman and her killer, agreeing on a deal for human flesh.

It has its qualities, you know.

[Fisherman]

Likewise if Cadosch was an attention-seeker he was surprisingly willing to accept the possibility that he might have been incorrect on which side the word no came from.

Which is why I like him more than I like Long - but not enough to invest too much in him. Just like Long does, he offers a line that seems taken from a silent movie: "No!"

Not that we are ever going to agree on these matters, but that's my five cents anyway. I also happen to think that witnesses who make up stories are often adamant to add something that will make their stories sound correct. In this case, both Long and Cadosh were absolutely, 100 per cent sure of their timings, the problem being they could not foresee that ANOTHER witness would be just as sure ot that witness´ timings. And ooops, they got the sequence wrong.

[Fisherman]

But how can you judge him either way? if you have a theory on who is right and who is wrong then you will either want to believe him or not.

The whole inquest was a shambles, as were most of them, so many ambiguites arose which were never clarified, but seemed to be accepted without question, and it hasnt helped researchers because of the different versions of the witness testimony in the newspapers.

Can anything be safely relied upon ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Answer: No.

This was an era when the police were looked upon as being somebody not to agree with, and that would have applied perhaps most clearly in the East End, and so I think you are perfectly right to point out how shaky witness testimony could potentially be.

[Ginger]

It's extremely improbable that John Richardson missed the rotting corpse mere feet away from him as he sat on the step. Just as it's unlikely that Albert Cadosch heard someone else say "No" and slump against the fence. Timings aside, I believe both men were honest in their testimony.

I don't think it that far-fetched that Richardson could have sat on the step, and never noticed the body. He had come on a pointless errand, apparently from a sense of duty to his mother. His looking at the cellar door to see if it had been broken into during the night wasn't likely to prevent any thefts, after all. Still, he said he would, and here he was, quite possibly regretting the ten minutes he had to leave early to include this in his walk to work. I very much doubt that his check was anything more than a cursory glance at the door.

Now, as Richardson looked out into the yard, the cellar door was to his right, and the body (if there), to his left. The spring-loaded door opened to the left. He had no reason at all to even glance to the left. Furthermore, his boot was bothering him enough for him to decide to do something about it. I think he probably went halfway down the stairs, looking to the right toward the cellar door. His dutiful check finished, it's "Let's fix this boot!". He wants both hands for the boot, so he's going to sit on the stair turned to the right, so the door bumps against his back, leaving his arms free. Once he's done, the natural thing is to rise, completing the turn to the right, and holding the door with his right hand as he goes back inside.

I think it's quite possible that Annie was lying there dead the entire time, and he just never noticed. I'm by no means convinced that she was there, but I'd not rule it out.

[Herlock Sholmes]

But how can you judge him either way? if you have a theory on who is right and who is wrong then you will either want to believe him or not.

The whole inquest was a shambles, as were most of them, so many ambiguites arose which were never clarified, but seemed to be accepted without question, and it hasnt helped researchers because of the different versions of the witness testimony in the newspapers.

Can anything be safely relied upon ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

We can be sure of very little Trevor. We just assess as best we can with what we have available to us.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't think it that far-fetched that Richardson could have sat on the step, and never noticed the body. He had come on a pointless errand, apparently from a sense of duty to his mother. His looking at the cellar door to see if it had been broken into during the night wasn't likely to prevent any thefts, after all. Still, he said he would, and here he was, quite possibly regretting the ten minutes he had to leave early to include this in his walk to work. I very much doubt that his check was anything more than a cursory glance at the door.

Now, as Richardson looked out into the yard, the cellar door was to his right, and the body (if there), to his left. The spring-loaded door opened to the left. He had no reason at all to even glance to the left. Furthermore, his boot was bothering him enough for him to decide to do something about it. I think he probably went halfway down the stairs, looking to the right toward the cellar door. His dutiful check finished, it's "Let's fix this boot!". He wants both hands for the boot, so he's going to sit on the stair turned to the right, so the door bumps against his back, leaving his arms free. Once he's done, the natural thing is to rise, completing the turn to the right, and holding the door with his right hand as he goes back inside.

I think it's quite possible that Annie was lying there dead the entire time, and he just never noticed. I'm by no means convinced that she was there, but I'd not rule it out.

As he sat on the step the door would have been on his left Ginger.

[Ginger]

If we were to disallow views wo do not like, we would run the risk of becoming Ripperologists.

[Ginger]

As he sat on the step the door would have been on his left Ginger.

The door to the back yard was to his left if he sat on the steps. The door to the cellar workshop to his right.

[Ginger]

Also, as regards the Long/Cadosch timing, I belive that Mrs. Long specified that she knew the time from the brewery clock, whereas Mr. Cadosch specified that he knew the time from the church clock. Were the two clocks in accord?

[Trevor Marriott]

We can be sure of very little Trevor. We just assess as best we can with what we have available to us.

Very true, but sometimes that personal assessment is clouded by a persons own personal theory.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

The door to the back yard was to his left if he sat on the steps. The door to the cellar workshop to his right.

That’s twice in the last couple of days I’ve misread a post. A trip to Specsaver might be in order. Apologies Ginger.

[Ginger]

That’s twice in the last couple of days I’ve misread a post. A trip to Specsaver might be in order. Apologies Ginger.

S'okay.

[Ginger]

One of the more interesting speculations that I've heard posited in an effort to reconcile the testimonies of Philips, Richardson, Cadosch, and Long is that Dr. Philips ToD was correct, and Mr. Richardson simply missed seeing her when he sat down to fix his boot. Mrs. Long and Mr. Cadosch were relying on two different clocks (the brewery clock, and the church clock), so one or both were slightly off the correct time - at any rate, Mrs. Long was a few minutes in advance of Mr. Cadosch. The woman she saw was not Annie (who was lying dead in the back yard), but was an unknown prostitute arranging an assignation - #29 seems to have been popular. The unknown pair went into the back yard just after Mrs. Long passed. The muffled "no!" that Mr. Cadosch heard was the horrified exclamation of one of them discovering the murder victim, and falling or leaning against the fence for support.

I wish I could recall who initially thought this up. Someone on here, I'm sure. It's absolutely elegant, like something from Agatha Christie. By no means does that prove its truth, but it's logically solid.

[FISHY1118]

One of the more interesting speculations that I've heard posited in an effort to reconcile the testimonies of Philips, Richardson, Cadosch, and Long is that Dr. Philips ToD was correct, and Mr. Richardson simply missed seeing her when he sat down to fix his boot. Mrs. Long and Mr. Cadosch were relying on two different clocks (the brewery clock, and the church clock), so one or both were slightly off the correct time - at any rate, Mrs. Long was a few minutes in advance of Mr. Cadosch. The woman she saw was not Annie (who was lying dead in the back yard), but was an unknown prostitute arranging an assignation - #29 seems to have been popular. The unknown pair went into the back yard just after Mrs. Long passed. The muffled "no!" that Mr. Cadosch heard was the horrified exclamation of one of them discovering the murder victim, and falling or leaning against the fence for support.

I wish I could recall who initially thought this up. Someone on here, I'm sure. It's absolutely elegant, like something from Agatha Christie. By no means does that prove its truth, but it's logically solid.

There IS just one problem with this scenario ginger ..Mrs long passed that couple at 5.31/2 am, Codosch heard the ''NO'' just after he returned from his first trip to the loo at 5.22am, so they couldn't have been in the yard to hear it. This is of course if we go by the times stated in both long and Codosch testimony.

However, like you say if she was in advance of codosch this would work , but long was pretty adamant about her position at 5.25am [about the time codosch heard the no] even before she entered hanbury st