How strange is this

[Rosella]

The Britannia beerhouse (known locally as 'Ringers') and its adjoining building seems to have been a house of ill-repute, with a brothel for under-age girls allegedly run on the premises!

Walter Ringer, the landlord, was born in Norfolk, though he was long dead by the time Mary Kelly was drinking there.

[Natasha]

Possible Connection To The Norwich Letter?

Hi All

I thought it may be of interest to add info in regards to the pubs of Spitalfields etc, I think that if the pubs are connected to the murders then finding out who was running/working/living in the pubs may help with finding out more about the murders, and to start here's an interesting pub:

City of Norwich, 111 Wentworth Street, Spitalfields, not that far from Dorset Street/Miller's Court!
I couldn't find the licensee of this bar in 1888 (perhaps the licensee of 1886 or the licensee of 1891 was there in 1888)

Due to copyright issues, I'm unable to copy details on to this site, but you can view all the info on the following site, which contains details of the licensee and or lodger, occupation & age. Check out the pubs: Britannia, Duke Of Wellington, Blue Coat Boy on Dorset Street:

http://pubshistory.com/LondonPubs/Spitalfield/

This website also has a vast selection of bars in other areas of London, also outside London, for anyone interested.

[Sally]

Hi All - glad to see this conversation is still going on amidst Shawlgate...

I first brought up the pubs in post #85 - however, my take was that the reference in the letter to the piers in Great Yarmouth - which are known as the Britannia and Wellington piers - may have been a cryptic reference to two local pubs [very local, I mean] called the Britannia [at the end of Dorset Street] and the Wellington [Shepherd Street]. We know that locals drank at both. The Wellington is where McCarthy gave a speech in defence of Dorset Street some years later.

[RockySullivan]

To Rocky

I too believe the Ripper was a functioning alcoholic. I think it would be possible for an alcoholic to eviscerate at the speed the Ripper did. I also think different levels of alcohol would explain so called differences in medical skill at different Ripper murders.

Cheers John

I think the alcohol could account for the lack of fear & brazenness. I think some of the victims drinking before their murder points to someone who was friendly with them from the pubs too. Do we have any account of where they drank regularly and any possible description of the pub regulars?

[John Wheat]

I feel the ripper may have been a functioning alcohol...would it be possible for an alcohol to eviscerate so fast if he was very used to drinking heavily?

To Rocky

I too believe the Ripper was a functioning alcoholic. I think it would be possible for an alcoholic to eviscerate at the speed the Ripper did. I also think different levels of alcohol would explain so called differences in medical skill at different Ripper murders.

Cheers John

[RockySullivan]

I feel the ripper may have been a functioning alcohol...would it be possible for an alcohol to eviscerate so fast if he was very used to drinking heavily?

[Natasha]

To Add Further (Edit time ran out)

I'm not ruling out sexual activity entirely, but I don't think there was any relationship between them IMO. Perhaps Barnett wanted more from Kelly, but she didn't reciprocate and perhaps that caused the argument.

[Natasha]

I would like to add further that Mrs McCarthy was the only person to step forward outside of Whitechapel to ID Kelly. Is that not a bit strange seeing as her description doesn't match some of the main people like Barnett, unless he was lying, yet Mrs McCarthy was adamant it was Kelly.

Could it be possible that Mrs McCarthy knew something of importance in regards to Kelly's murder?

Also I think Barnett and Kelly living together was more a business partnership (it would have been cheaper to live together, rent wise) than a physical relationship. I say this because there was nothing that suggested they were in a relationship. I think they agreed to live with each other 1: because it was cheaper 2: Kelly was scared of someone, and perhaps felt safer with Barnett. There could be more to the living arrangements, but I think it was based on a platonic relationship.

[Natasha]

Yes, but Wapping is another suburb. Surely the victims, with only a few pennies to spare wouldn't be tracking to a pub half an hour away or more to drink when there were many local pubs in Whitechapel?

Hi Rosella

Here is how it makes sense:

Breezers Hill is located in Wapping. Is that not where Kelly reputedly stayed?

As to trekking around, I don't think it would be impossible, that victims had lives outside of Whitechapel, for instance Eddowes went hop picking in Kent, now that is quite far.

If you take into account that the victims may have had connections with the ripper in the past, then I don't think it's unfeasible that they would have been a customer in the Yarmouth Arms at least a few times.

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha Great post!! I really think the knew the victims from drinking in pubs too!

Hi Rocky

Thanks.

The pubs are the key I think

[Rosella]

Yes, but Wapping is another suburb. Surely the victims, with only a few pennies to spare wouldn't be tracking to a pub half an hour away or more to drink when there were many local pubs in Whitechapel?

[RockySullivan]

Hi Natasha Great post!! I really think the knew the victims from drinking in pubs too!

[Natasha]

Norfolk Letter

Hi All

As far as I know the following has not been mentioned on CB.

Further to this letter I thought I would add the following in regards to the Norfolk/Yarmouth letter:

YARMOUTH ARMS PUB:170 Wapping High Street, opened: 1841, Licensee: Henry Jackson.

It was about half an hour away from Millers court.

"Look out for him on Thursday night at either of the piers, where he intends to do for two Norwich women, before closing time."

If you were to dissect the letter and relate it to the Yarmouth Arms Pub, it would suggest that 2 of the women drank in that pub, and that the ripper did also. The only problem I have with all this, is I don't know weather it was open in 1888. I guess it doesn't matter, perhaps the author of this letter knew that 2 victims perhaps drank in this pub as did the ripper when it was open.

The letter was sent to Norwich, but I think the letter was a cryptic clue for the London police. Maybe the author was scared of being found out for writing it.

[Natasha]

This is by far the most interesting thing I have ever read about the ripper case. From everything you all have said so far....this letter will surely lead to the ripper. Shawl shmawl. Maxwell, Smiths, pearly poll and 14 Dorset all need a deeper look. Dorset street is the key. The ripper must have known the exact habits of Kelly to be comfortable enough to mutilate her so violently while being positive he wouldn't be disturbed. The ripper had to be so confident to be in that room for so long like a sitting duck. He must have lived across the street from Kelly and watched her closely for some time to be sure no one would come knocking in the time frame of the murder. Maxwell needs to be looked into. I think redirecting focus from all the "DNA" blubber and examining this real clue would be wise.

Hi Rocky

I couldn't agree more!

The shawl thing, I think, is quite hard to believe. What made someone think Kosminski had any contact with this shawl? Or Eddowes for that matter.
DNA tests are not cheap, I'm not sure if the owner of the shawl said weather he had the shawl tested for all the suspects or at least some of them not just Kosminski. If he didn't, what made him think up the link between Eddowes & Kosminski?

Anyway back to the letter. All the connections to Millers Court need thorough investigation.
Someone did a map of where the killer may have lived using geographical profiling ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...ler-lived.html ) and they reckon he may have resided in Flower & Dean street, it's not that far from Millers Court.

[RockySullivan]

This is by far the most interesting thing I have ever read about the ripper case. From everything you all have said so far....this letter will surely lead to the ripper. Shawl shmawl. Maxwell, Smiths, pearly poll and 14 Dorset all need a deeper look. Dorset street is the key. The ripper must have known the exact habits of Kelly to be comfortable enough to mutilate her so violently while being positive he wouldn't be disturbed. The ripper had to be so confident to be in that room for so long like a sitting duck. He must have lived across the street from Kelly and watched her closely for some time to be sure no one would come knocking in the time frame of the murder. Maxwell needs to be looked into. I think redirecting focus from all the "DNA" blubber and examining this real clue would be wise.