"City PC"

[Jonathan H]

To Tom

Sir Robert Anderson's memoirs came out in 1910 claiming that a Jewsh witness had positively identified a fellow Jew as the murdereer, but had refused to testify.

Sims acidly disparaged this notion in 'The Referee' as a grotesque, anti-Semitic caricature. That Sims was acting as Mac's proxy, as usual, is confirmed by the latter's memoirs, where he goes out of his way to characterise the only viable suspect and witness as both English Gentiles -- and that the killer himself was angry at three Jews for disturbing him.

Hence the beat cop shifted across to Eddowes.

To make the graffiti fit a number of Jews, on that night, you have to increase their number, to fit the plural, by adding more men to the cart at the Stride murder.

The City PC witness is a semi-fictional construct to first increase the viabilty of the Polish Jew suspect in Griffiths and Sims, and then to quash him in the memoirs because they are anti-Anderson on this matter:

"Laying the Ghost of Jack the Ripper' (1914)

'When public excitement then was at white heat, two murders-unquestionably by the same hand-took place on the night of 3oth September. A woman, Elizabeth Stride, was found in Berners Street, with her throat cut, but no attempt at mutilation. In this case there can be little doubt but that the murderer was disturbed at his demoniacal work by some Jews who at that hour drove up to an anarchist club in the street. But the lust for blood was unsatisfied. The madman started off in search of another victim, whom he found in Catherine Eddowes. This woman's body, very badly mutilated, was found in a dark corner of Mitre Square. On this occasion it is probable that the police officer on duty in the vicinity saw the murderer with his victim a few minutes before, but no satisfactory description was forthcoming. During this night an apron, on which bloody hands had been wiped, was found in Goulburn Street (situated, if my memory is correct, about half-way between Berners Street and Mitre Square). Hard by was a writing in chalk on the wall, to the effect that " the Jews are the men who will not be blamed for nothing." The apron gave no clue, and the chalk writing was obliterated by the order of a high police official, who was seemingly afraid that a riot against the Jews might be the outcome of this strange " writing on the wall:' This was the only clue ever left behind by the murderer.

What you have here is not two police chiefs who both with a paucity of hard evidence agreed to disagree about their competing suspects.

What you actually have is two police chiefs -- two primatry sources -- who both think they do have coclsive evidence and one of whom, Mac, kept asserting, in public, that the other was dead wrong.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Chris, very interesting post from you in 2011. I had a feeling someone must have hit upon this before me. As I mentioned before, various 'throw-away' comments from 'Unofficial' lead me to believe he was a retired copper and not just a layman reading out of Griffith's book. Sims, perhaps, or someone close to Mac who may have consulted him prior to writing in response to Reid's letter. Unofficial conceeds that the City PC/City Police witness varied a 'Polish Jews' theory, but defends Mac's Druitt theory by pointing out that he only got a 'glimpse' of the suspect.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Chris]

Hi Wolf (and Bridewell, and everybody). The MM was being dissected that far back in time? Why wasn't this proposed solution being discussed on this thread? Would have saved me some time. Do you supposed it was one of these two men - Divall or Thomson - or Mac himself who wrote in 1903 that the PC who got a glimpse of the killer in 'Mitre Court' was subsequently murdered (referring erroneously to Thompson)? If the writer was not Mac himself, he was getting his information from Mac, and when pressed by ex-Inspector Reid for his sources, referred to Major Griffith's book. Though I suspect he was not being genuine with Reid, since Griffith's book did not contain some of the private details evidenced in the letters our mysterious correspondent wrote, such as that the Mitre Court PC had subsequently been murdered.

As well as "Unofficial's" statement in 1903, I think Robert Sagar's reminiscences a couple of years later suggest this as a possibility:

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=162295&postcount=53

[Tom_Wescott]

This isn't actually new. Both Tom Divall, writing in 1929, and Sir Basil Thomson, in 1936, said this very same thing. Whether they were right or not is the question.

Wolf.

Hi Wolf (and Bridewell, and everybody). The MM was being dissected that far back in time? Why wasn't this proposed solution being discussed on this thread? Would have saved me some time. Do you supposed it was one of these two men - Divall or Thomson - or Mac himself who wrote in 1903 that the PC who got a glimpse of the killer in 'Mitre Court' was subsequently murdered (referring erroneously to Thompson)? If the writer was not Mac himself, he was getting his information from Mac, and when pressed by ex-Inspector Reid for his sources, referred to Major Griffith's book. Though I suspect he was not being genuine with Reid, since Griffith's book did not contain some of the private details evidenced in the letters our mysterious correspondent wrote, such as that the Mitre Court PC had subsequently been murdered.

Anyway, the solution I'm offering is that Mac confused PC Thompson with Joseph Lawende.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Bridewell]

Hi all,

If anybody still cares, I think I've solved the whole 'City PC' conundrum. For all I know, a dozen people already have come to the same conclusion I have, but I don't see it on this thread. Anyway, I think Mac confused PC Thompson, who discovered Frances Coles body and heard a man running away.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

Didn't MacNaghten say that "no-one ever saw the Ripper unless possibly it was the City PC who was (on) a beat near Mitre Square"? Pc Thompson was a Met officer and there is (so far as I'm aware) no indication that he saw the killer of Frances Coles. I tend towards Jonathan's view that the witnesses from Berner Street and Mitre Square have been confused, although I shy away from the idea of it being a deliberate muddying of the waters on the part of Sir MM.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi Tom.

If anybody still cares, I think I've solved the whole 'City PC' conundrum. For all I know, a dozen people already have come to the same conclusion I have, but I don't see it on this thread. Anyway, I think Mac confused PC Thompson, who discovered Frances Coles body and heard a man running away.

This isn't actually new. Both Tom Divall, writing in 1929, and Sir Basil Thomson, in 1936, said this very same thing. Whether they were right or not is the question.

Wolf.

[Jonathan H]

Dear Tom

Yes, that's possible.

But more likely is that if you look at the whole passage in both 'Aberconway' and 'Days of My Years', what Macnaghten has done is swap the witnesses of the 'double event' night.

The three Jews of the Eddowes murder are placed on the cart discovering Stride's body, and the beat cop from the latter placed at the site of the former. This gets rid of the Gentile-featured suspect seen by Lawende -- cue 'Kosminski's' shoehorning into the 1888 investigation -- and gets rid of the messy Schwartz tale of pipes, and knifes, and fleeing the scene of a Gentile woman in danger.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all,

If anybody still cares, I think I've solved the whole 'City PC' conundrum. For all I know, a dozen people already have come to the same conclusion I have, but I don't see it on this thread. Anyway, I think Mac confused PC Thompson, who discovered Frances Coles body and heard a man running away.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Monty]

Halses father was also a Halse, plus Daniel was baptised I believe.

The chances of him being Jewish are remote.

The 3 DCs were in Aldgate. They fanned out in differing directions at Mitre Square, so no, no hunch.

Monty

[lynn cates]

Halse

Hello Mac. Thanks.

"Or, Halse is at Aldgate Church at 2 minutes to 2. Is there any chance he made his way there from the Mitre Square area around 1.40am?"

Well, he was with two other officers. I don't believe they testified to that.

"Not quite sure why he strikes out with seeming purpose down one particular avenue."

Purportedly he was looking for the perpetrator. I might have stayed just inside the eastern edge of the C of L. On the other hand, an odd sight, sound, or even a hunch, might divert one.

"Was Halse Jewish by the way?"

I doubt it.

"I'm sure I've seen a marriage certificate suggesting he wasn't. But Daniel was a Jewish name . . ."

Of course, it is much in favour with Gentiles, too.

" . . . and Halse appears to be an anglicised Jewish surname."

Indeed? What would the original be?

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Mac,

No, Halse wasnt Jewish.

Born in Abbots Langley, Herts, Son of a printer, was an apprentice printer prior to joining the force.

Monty

Hi Monty,

Thanks for the info.

[Monty]

Or, Halse is at Aldgate Church at 2 minutes to 2. Is there any chance he made his way there from the Mitre Square area around 1.40am? Not quite sure why he strikes out with seeming purpose down one particular avenue.

Was Halse Jewish by the way? I'm sure I've seen a marriage certificate suggesting he wasn't. But Daniel was a Jewish name and Halse appears to be an anglicised Jewish surname.

Hi Mac,

No, Halse wasnt Jewish.

Born in Abbots Langley, Herts, Son of a printer, was an apprentice printer prior to joining the force.

Monty

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Jonathan. Thanks. Perhaps he depended on their gullibility.

Is there any chance that the reference is to Halse who stopped the two blokes for questioning and then let them go?

Cheers.
LC

Or, Halse is at Aldgate Church at 2 minutes to 2. Is there any chance he made his way there from the Mitre Square area around 1.40am? Not quite sure why he strikes out with seeming purpose down one particular avenue.

Was Halse Jewish by the way? I'm sure I've seen a marriage certificate suggesting he wasn't. But Daniel was a Jewish name and Halse appears to be an anglicised Jewish surname.

[S.Brett]

Thanks Monty!

Yes, Morris was MET.

Imagine:

Thomas Ede has seen a suspect on the morning of the 8th September 1888. A man, coming from near Buck´s Row, fleeing in the direction of Hanbury Street? With a knife in his trouser pocket?

Serialkillers often visit former crime scenes.

Mary Ann Nichol´s Inquest

“On Saturday morning, 8th September, Ede was coming down Cambridge Heath Road when he saw a man on the opposite side of the road, just outside the Forester's Arms public house. The man's peculiar appearance made Ede look at him; he appeared to have a wooden arm which was hanging at his side. The man then put his hand down, revealing about four inches of knife-blade sticking out of his trouser pocket. There were three other men present who were also watching and Ede spoke to them. He then followed the man who, realising he was being followed, quickened his pace before being lost under some railway arches.”

“The man was described as being about 5ft 8in in height, about 35 years of age with a dark moustache and whiskers. He wore a double peaked cap, dark brown jacket and a pair of overalls and dark trousers. He walked as though he had a stiff knee and had 'a fearful look about the eyes'. He had the appearance of a mechanic (he was not muscular) and the overalls were clean. Ede could not tell what sort of knife it was.”

“He was later recalled to the inquest (this time as William Eade) to state that he had since seen the man again and had ascertained that he was one Henry James, a well-known but harmless local lunatic. James did not, incidentally, have a wooden arm.”

Ede: “He wore a double peaked cap”
The witnesses Schwartz and Lawende watched a man with one peak on his cap.
Major Henry Smith (City Police): “… Cap with two peaks”

Ede: “He walked as though he had a stiff knee”
Schwartz: “… a man walking as if partially intoxicated”
(Btw.: Henry James and Charles Ludwig had a stiff knee/leg)

If Ede had been a former constable of the City Police (as Eade), now living between two cultures, spending some time with Jewish friends, he could have changed his mind when he learned that the man he saw was a crazy Jew.

[Monty]

Hello!

Is it possible that the City PC had been Thomas Ede (William Eade)?

In a well-known list of Swanson there is the numeral 201 after the names of Nichols and Chapman.

Thomas Ede (also called William Eade), a witness who played a role in both cases, claimed at the end that he had seen Henry James.

Anderson:

“…but when he learned that the suspect was a fellow-Jew he declined to swear to him.”

Perhaps Ede (Eade) learned that the man he saw was a crazy Jew.

In the Old Bailey Central Criminal Court, I found the following:

1843 WILLIAM EADE (police constable D 67.)
1843 WILLIAM EADE . I am a policeman. I was in Great James-street
1849 WILLIAM ARTHUR EADE (City policeman, 125)
1857 WILLIAM ARTHUR EADE . (City Policeman, 78)
1860 WILLIAM ARTHUR EADE (City policeman, 146)
1864 WILLIAM ARTHUR EADE (City policeman, 146)

T H I S Eade worked for both departments? MET (D 67) and City Police?

D 67= MET?
125, 78, 146= City Police?

So there were these numbers in both departments? City Policeman 201 and MET Whitechapel H-Division, H 201. Course C201, K201, E201…

These numbers were always. For example: H-Divison, PC Weeks H201 and later PC Bridle H201

They changed the name Thomas Ede to a name of an Ex-Constable (William Eade)?

To Ede (Eade):

Was he a former Policeman? Perhaps for both departments, wearing the numeral 201 and once living or working in Mitre Square?

Were there any connections to the Jewish Population?

There were probably Jewish Policemen:
Isaac Jacobs, C 201
PC Abrahams (acting as German interpreter—Oct 6th 1894)

What was his age in 1888?

If Ede (Eade) had been the witness and he was an Ex- Policeman (City Police and/or MET) other people might have been confused the issue with PC Watkins.

An Ex-Policeman (with Jewish connections) and a Police Seaside Home would also fit well.

Best Regards

Hi S.Brett,

D Division was Marylebone. The Eade PCs you name (assuming the latter two are indeed the same PC -as they had the same collar number I suspect they are) would have been retired by 1888.

Morris was Met PC. not City.

Monty