Long and Lawende's descriptions...

[GregBaron]

Red face...

Blotchy perhaps?

Yeah I thought about Blotchy too Mr. Abby Normal....

On another thread a poster surmised that our red faced man worked in a foundry..........perhaps MJK week he got too close to the fire and blotches were raised on his face.....?

Greg

[Abby Normal]

Inquest of Catherine Eddowes

Lawende -

Joseph Hyam levy -

Hi all,

The description’s above show we have a short rough looking man. Fair. Perhaps stocky, strong, a fullback type(broad shoulders anyone?). This is our man, at least for Eddowes and most likely Stride. This is no Jew. I’d guess a short powerful psycho Jew hating Gentile. Speculative of course. But I’m sorry, this fellow is not Druitt(too tall dark and effete), Tumblety(please..a 6 foot homosexual)….Chapman(nope..too thin and tall and dandy-ish)….Le Grand (No….too tall and thin…..but a Le Grand accomplice….now that’s a theory!)….Grant/Grainger(again too tall and thin)….Hutchinson(smart military appearance…wideawake hat……..do we know anymore of his description?)….. We don’t know what Koz looked like but I doubt a fair faced rough neck. This could be Ada Wilson’s attacker….30 year old 5’5” red face.....So, I’m afraid this guy is nowhere on our radar screen……..throw out all the suspects……he’s fooled us all. Discard all pet theories. None of our top 10 list fit this description. What do we do now?

Greg

Blotchy perhaps?

[Sister Hyde]

Of course I know we don't know for sure that Lawende saw Eddowes and her killer but it seems highly likely..........


Greg

OR she was incredibly fast at work

[GregBaron]

Stock broker...

Where are you getting "stocky" from?

Admittedly Chris I conjectured "stocky" from short, broad shouldered, physically strong(Dr. Bond?) and rough looking.

Stocky or not, my point is this description fits none of the suspects. Of course I know we don't know for sure that Lawende saw Eddowes and her killer but it seems highly likely..........


Greg

[Sister Hyde]

We don’t know what Koz looked like but I doubt a fair faced rough neck. This could be Ada Wilson’s attacker….30 year old 5’5” red face.....So, I’m afraid this guy is nowhere on our radar screen……..throw out all the suspects……he’s fooled us all. Discard all pet theories. None of our top 10 list fit this description. What do we do now?

Greg[/QUOTE]

unfortunately nothing.... it's a shame we don't know really what Kosminski looked like, but we have that problem with other suspects, just like Jacob Levy, the only thing we know is that he was between 58 and 59 kilos for 1m60 when admitted to the asylum (well I have an idea of what it gives cause that's exactly the same as me except that I'm a chick so usually curves tends to be allocated differently)but that still doesn't say if he had changed a lot physically since the past months or year. the witness game is so frustrating

[Wickerman]

At the end of the day, the importance of Lawende's statement rests only on his "believing" the articles of women's clothing he was shown were the same.
Lawende did not see the woman's face and presumably because of this was not shown Eddowes body.

Regards, Jon S.

[Chris]

Where are you getting "stocky" from?

[GregBaron]

Short stocky rough neck killer...

Inquest of Catherine Eddowes

Lawende -

Did anything about their movements attract your attention? - No. The man looked rather rough and shabby.

Joseph Hyam levy -

[Coroner] What height was the man? - I should think he was three inches taller than the woman, who was, perhaps, 5ft high

Hi all,

The description’s above show we have a short rough looking man. Fair. Perhaps stocky, strong, a fullback type(broad shoulders anyone?). This is our man, at least for Eddowes and most likely Stride. This is no Jew. I’d guess a short powerful psycho Jew hating Gentile. Speculative of course. But I’m sorry, this fellow is not Druitt(too tall dark and effete), Tumblety(please..a 6 foot homosexual)….Chapman(nope..too thin and tall and dandy-ish)….Le Grand (No….too tall and thin…..but a Le Grand accomplice….now that’s a theory!)….Grant/Grainger(again too tall and thin)….Hutchinson(smart military appearance…wideawake hat……..do we know anymore of his description?)….. We don’t know what Koz looked like but I doubt a fair faced rough neck. This could be Ada Wilson’s attacker….30 year old 5’5” red face.....So, I’m afraid this guy is nowhere on our radar screen……..throw out all the suspects……he’s fooled us all. Discard all pet theories. None of our top 10 list fit this description. What do we do now?

Greg

[Jonathan H]

Lawende's description suggests a youngish, Gentile man, dressed like a sailor.

This witness was probably used to have a look at a Gentile sailor, Tom Sadler, and unsurprisingly said no to this older, burlier man, despite him being a Gentile sailor.

That was in 1891. In 1895, he is almost certainly the witness who said a remarkable 'yes' to William Grant, another Gentile sailor whose description in the press account is a generic fit for Lawende's 1888 description.

So much for being unable to recognize 'Jack' again -- except that, apparently, Lawende was wrong anyway about Grant, as that positive identification went nowhere.

This disappointing tale is arguably the origin of Anderson's frustration about a Jewish witness who affirmed to a Ripper suspect, and yet it did not lead to a conviction, or even an arrest.

Thus Lawende's 'yes' has arguably merged, in a fading memory, with his 'no' to Sadler.

That both suspects were Gentile sailors, and not foreign Jews, has been substituted by Sims in 1907, working from 'Aberconway', which has Eddowes being seen with maybe the Polish Jew suspect.

Mixing and matching, you have a Jew seeing a Jew and saying a 'yes' and a 'no', and in 1888/9 not 1891 and 1895.

In my opinion everything Macnaghten does regarding Druitt, in terms of what he communicated to his literary cronies like Sims, was to hide the murderer's true identity. That is why he obscures the sighting of 'Jack the Sailor' into a sighting of possibly the Polish Jew suspect by a Gentile beat cop. In his memoirs he dumped even this deflection, simply making the sighting by the non-existent policeman into nothing: eg. 'unsatisfying'

[jason_c]

I think we can be pretty sure that Lawende doubted whether he would be able to identify the man again. As well as his inquest testimony, we have a report by McWilliam that says he didn't think he would know the man again (Ultimate Sourcebook, p. 201) and one by Swanson saying that he could not identify him (Ultimate Sourcebook, p. 207). On top of that, Henry Smith in his memoirs recalls him saying "Oh no! ... I only had a short look at him" in response to the suggestion that he would easily recognise him.

After I posted I read the link you put up and noticed Lawende said as much to the police themselves. This for me is my major doubt against Andersons version of events.

[Chris]

I cant square this with Andersons account of an immediate identification. Unless Lawende was less than forthcoming to the press.

I think we can be pretty sure that Lawende doubted whether he would be able to identify the man again. As well as his inquest testimony, we have a report by McWilliam that says he didn't think he would know the man again (Ultimate Sourcebook, p. 201) and one by Swanson saying that he could not identify him (Ultimate Sourcebook, p. 207). On top of that, Henry Smith in his memoirs recalls him saying "Oh no! ... I only had a short look at him" in response to the suggestion that he would easily recognise him.

[jason_c]

Hello Greg. Lawende's testimony "smells" more honest than any other I've come across. I particularly appreciate his candour in saying, "I doubt I should know him if I saw him again."

Cheers.
LC

Which is why I believe he was used as the ID witness for Jewish suspect.


Sims writes that the suspect was the same height and build as the one he saw on the night of the murder. This sounds like a witness unsure of an identification. Macnaghten specifically mentions a Mitre Square witness(he claimed a PC of course).

I cant square this with Andersons account of an immediate identification. Unless Lawende was less than forthcoming to the press.

[lynn cates]

Lawende

Hello Greg. Lawende's testimony "smells" more honest than any other I've come across. I particularly appreciate his candour in saying, "I doubt I should know him if I saw him again."

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Eyewitness worth......?

Thanks Chris and Lynn, good information. Long's description doesn't seem too valuable to me....Lawende's is better although various accounts of it are contradictory...we know today how unreliable eyewitness accounts are......they probably didn't know as well then and of course, what else did they have to go on? Now, what can I say about broad shoulders..?


Greg

[lynn cates]

answers

Hello Greg. Most of the information we have about witnesses is from newspaper accounts of either the inquest itself or interviews.

"I’m particularly interested in Mrs. Long’s saying that she didn’t see his face but thought he was dark! How does she know that if she didn’t see his face!"

I wonder about the back of the neck? That could give a clue.

"Was he foreign because when he asked ‘Will you?’ it was with an accent of some sort?"

It would make sense if this happened. So, if his native language were a Germanic variant, including Yiddish, it might sound like "Vill you?" Unfortunately, we lack information. (I recall having come across an interview or such where an allegation of a foreign accent was made.)

"Or did he have on a hat and coat that might have been more associated with Jews or foreigners than with standard working class gentiles?"

Well, there are 2 reports on his hat. One was brown felt, the other brown deer stalker.

"Even more astonishing to me is the statement that she couldn’t say his age but that he appeared to be over 40! If she couldn’t guess his age how did she guess his age?"

I wonder if she meant she could not state his age with accuracy, but was thought he was about 40+?

Is any of that accurate? A question to be asked.

Cheers.
LC